93 in a 50 DC Options

[ohdearme]

Hi, as you can tell by the time of the post i cant sleep with worry!
Got stopped by a single policeman with a hand held laser speed gun this morning, 6.50am, clear and dry, no traffic in front etc, 50mph limit DC and clocked at 93mph @ 113m.
What would you expect i'd get from this, ban+fine or would i get away with points+fine? I've looked at the points wizard but it seems i could get a ban or points.
Its my first offence in an otherwise point/convictions free 15 years of driving.

Also i got a producer for my insurance (had my license on me) and it says on it "Reason for stop : 2 offence"...what does this mean exactly?

TIA.

This post has been edited by ohdearme: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 - 00:47

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[southpaw82]

93 in a 50 is off the top end of the scale within the sentencing guidelines. I would suggest that the court will start off by considering a ban of circa 28 days. Only exceptional mitigation will bring this down into the region of six points, I'm afraid.

The reason for the stop as "Offence" simply means that the PC wants your documents checked after he stopped you for an offence. As opposed to a stop/search etc.

[ohdearme]

Thanks.
I was always under the impression double the speed limit or 100mph+ on any road means an instant ban usually, i take it at 100mph+ it would be a pretty much nailed on ban in a 50, DC or not?

I was worried that the "2 Offence" bit was that they would be doing me for speeding and something else which i'm not aware of!
A couple of people i have since found out have been done around the same stretch of road, one was at 84 where i was zapped and he got 6 points+fine and another work collegue who had 3 or 6 points at the time (he doesnt recall exactly) was doing 87 and got an 8 week ban but this was half a mile further on where there is no central divider between the carriageways.

This post has been edited by ohdearme: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 - 00:37

[southpaw82]

There's no such rule in the guidelines - I've told you that you exceed the guidelines already and that as such you should expect a ban to be the starting point. Good mitigation can reduce the penalty.

[ohdearme]

OK so in theory it could be more than a 56 day ban?

The "2 Offence" bit on the producer, is this 2 offences ie speeding and not producing insurance at the time or is the "2" just a code for something. Its the presence of the numebr 2 thats worrying me!

This post has been edited by ohdearme: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 - 09:25

[southpaw82]

I'd be very surprised if it was more than 56 days.

"2 Offence" means simply "Reason 2" which in turn means "Offence". As opposed to "Stop check" or a myriad other reasons to stop you. Stop worrying about it!

[ohdearme]

OK thanks very much, this is much appreciated help.

[ohdearme]

One more question please.
Any ideas on what the offence code would be, SP30 or SP60?
As mentioned above a work colleague doing 87 down the same road 1/2 mile further on got a 56 day ban and his ban code is SP60 (he also had 2 x SP30's (so total 6 points) for speeding at the time of the offence).

[Fredd]

SP30

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Drive...ons/DG_10022425

[ohdearme]

Hmmm no SP60 listed on there but the work colleague got an SP60 in December 2006!

Has it been withdrawn now?

[Fredd]

A lot of people were incorrectly given an SP60 code back around that time: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry203081

[ohdearme]

I understand that its likely i wont have the same Mags but a guy at work got 44 days yesterday at the same court as i'll be going to for doing 84 on the same stretch of DC...conditions sounded the same and he also had no previous in 20+yrs. I think 56 days is on the cards!

Also slightly OT but can you get 10 points in one go for speeding?

[spunko2010]

I believe the maximum issued under DWDC (which you aren't up for) is 9 points. I could be wrong though, but 10 seems unlikely.

The guy at your work might have come across badly, said something that was frowned upon, etc etc. I was close to double the speed limit and I got 6 points today. It really depends on so many things.

[Fredd]

No, 6 points is the maximum for excess speed.

[ohdearme]

One road layout question....you'll probably say i should know this but anyway.

Dual Carriageway = 2 lanes (or more) on both sides with a dividing strip of continuous land or a barrier.

If the above has portions of the dividing strip of land or barrier missing is it classed as single carriageway?

EDIT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_carriageway#United_Kingdom

Seems like yes is the answer....should of Googled first, sorry.

This post has been edited by ohdearme: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 - 22:19

[ohdearme]

Is there any rules/guidelines and where an Officer should and should not situate themselves when having a speed gun session?
This includes on where the Officer stops the vehicles.

[southpaw82]

No, only guidance.

[ohdearme]

I've found out that the Officer who "caught" me has been reported to the Police Complaints as he was parked part in the DC and part on a Cyclepath with his doors open, this caused at least one cyclist to "hit" his door i believe. I'm not expecting any of those to have been caught speeding to have their punishment dropped! One can wish though.

[CountryCousin]

I've found out that the Officer who "caught" me has been reported to the Police Complaints as he was parked part in the DC and part on a Cyclepath with his doors open, this caused at least one cyclist to "hit" his door i believe. I'm not expecting any of those to have been caught speeding to have their punishment dropped! One can wish though.

A certain Mr Richard Bentley (a well known road traffic sign expert who often acts for defendants as an expert witness) of http://www.rmbconsulting.co.uk sometimes tells clients who seek his possible assistance that parking a Police mobile camera van on a pavement without special permission from the local authority and barriers and signs to mark the diversion is an offence and that committing an offence to gather evidence of the crimes of others might render the evidence gathered in that manner inadmissible in court under Section 78 of the Police & Criminal Evidence Act (PACE). However as Mr Bentley then later discovered in court it is only an offence to do this if the local authority has passed a specific bylaw forbidding parking on that particular pavement or footway. The only exception to this is in Greater London where all parking on the pavement is banned.

Here it is a cycleway but it might also be a public pavement or footway too but to go down this route you would need to hire a top traffic solicitor like one of the three in England listed on this website at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36859 or the larger number listed at http://www.abd.org.uk/solicitors.htm But if the speed limit is 50mph then the chances are there is no ban on parking here and also the mags will be enraged by anyone trying to run this argument at such a relatively high speed as yours if they do not accept it. On the other hand you are probably on for a 56 day ban anyway and might be on for a £1,000 fine or at least a £600 or £700 one (depending on your income or unless your income is very low) so perhaps there is nothing to lose. There might well be a specific local bylaw against parking a vehicle on this cycle path.

However having just tried unsuccessfully pleading Not Guilty to 65mph in 50mph including trying a complex technical argument about not all speed limit terminal signs being valid (even though the ones I passed were valid) I can't really advise that you go down this road as the crown brought in an expert witness against me and I was worried I might be looking at thousands in fines and costs (fortunately the CPS were seen to have gone massively OTT against a defendant in person and the judge slashed their costs award to only £250 in my case but that was far from guaranteed) . Also the costs risk here is worse in your case if you have a reasonable income as the fine will be large and courts will probably judge costs of up to 2.5 or 3 times the fine as reasonable as a worst case. And should I even mention my case taking four days in court due to numerous adjournments. So consider the Not Guilty route only if you have a very good technical argument to put or are very brave or have lots of time on your hands to keep turning up at the magistrates court.

The bottom line is that although you will probably get a ban of 56 days you then don't get any points on your licence whereas 6 points have a live impact on your licence for 3 years and stay on it for four years (although in the last year they have no impact on being banned for totting up). So if you can schedule a long holiday for part of the 56 day ban and/or using public transport is not such a hardship for you this may not be so difficult to endure. You need to bear in mind that 93mph in 50mph is like 113mph on the motorway and people seem to normally get banned and not points over 100mph on the motorway and nearly always over 105mph. Of course I expect you will tell us that this road was no doubt 70mph National Speed Limit until only a year or two ago but sadly this cuts no ice as an argument in court.

On the whole its probably best just to plead guilty and stress your previously clean licence and this being a momentary loss of concentration on the speed you were doing on your part which you now greatly regret and take the almost inevitable 56 day ban and fine. However I assume that you did pass valid 50mph terminal entry signs to this limit on each side of the road before you reached the camera and that there was also subsequently a validly and regularly placed system of repeater signs? If not these are also arguments you can run to object to the limit not being validly signed but you would probably need high powered legal representation to stand any chance of doing so successfully (I tried it myself but I didn't win as the district judge in question just didn't seem to take a defendant without a solicitor running these arguments seriously). Section 14 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual at http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf has much more detail on all the speed limit signing requirements prescribed under the Traffic Sign Rules and General Directions 2002 under RTRA 1984.

A 56 day ban will cause your insurers to put up your insurance but I suspect it won't be that much more than getting 6 points would and at least you then still have no points on your licence.

This post has been edited by CountryCousin: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 - 20:52

[ohdearme]

Wow nice reply.

Lets get one thing straight, i'm not expecting any miracles.
I'm 99.99999% sure i'm pleading guilty (1/3 off the fine) and have already accepted a ban is inevitable, 56 days probably as you say....any more and i'll be annoyed, anything less will be a bonus. I thought top fine was 125% of weekly wage so say that might be ~£500 with the 1/3 off.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a 56 day+ ban would mean i had to buy a new licence again @ £85 (or so) and 55day or less ban and i'd have my current one?
Do you get all the same codes as before, eg to tow a caravan for example?

Also the ban would stay on the licence for 4 years, what happens if after this 4 years you appear in court again on speeding charges (for example), I take it the court would know nothing of the previous or would they and you'd get into more trouble? (Obviously they'd know about it if you re-appeared within the 4years as its still on your licence).