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Appealing ban and fine and further points question?
Should I appeal?
Should I appeal
Yes [ 1 ] ** [11.11%]
No [ 2 ] ** [22.22%]
Insufficient information [ 6 ] ** [66.67%]
Total Votes: 9
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exponential
post Fri, 20 Feb 2009 - 00:54
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Some questions if I may please:

1) I was banned for six months for four different counts of failing to provide driver details (having moved property - and it's a work car) all in court in the same session. This was my first ever endorsement/offence/conviction having been driving for over 10 years. As a relatively high earner, I also received the maximum fine for each offence...

Should I appeal? Can they add to the fine and ban in appeal if I have already been done the maximum?

My irritation has been fuelled having found many stories online of people like Kevin Keegan and Anne Robinson and various other celebs, who got much lower fines when they were banned!

2) I have two other identical charges at another court for the same offence coming up. If I get another 2 x 6 points, will the 6 months ban run concurrently or will it start after the other ban finishes or would the points remain on my license? Would I be better off pleading 'guilty' to get a lesser fine and points, or would less points remain on my license - I suppose I am asking, would I actually be better getting a further twelve points rather than getting 3, 6 or 9?

It's annoying as I wouldn't normally think like this (surely no-one believes that you go 15 years without a single blip, then you speed 6 times in two months AND then deliberately don't respond???), as I believe I am not guilty but these people are just desperate to 'do' the motorist, clearly!

Thanks for your consideration.

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 - 01:07
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post Fri, 20 Feb 2009 - 00:54
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andy_foster
post Fri, 20 Feb 2009 - 01:16
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I have added the 'missing' option to your poll.
Without knowing far more about the circumstances - why you didn't provide the driver's details, it is difficult to offer good advice. I'm assuyming that you don't want to base your decision whether to appeal on bad advice...

You can appeal against sentence and/or conviction to the Crown Court (effectively a re-trial), or on a point of law to the High Court.
The appeal has to be lodged within 21 days of conviction.

The fine cannot be increased beyond the statutory maximum on appeal (because it is the statutory maximum for the offence), but you can be hit with increased costs if it all goes horribly wrong.
6 months is the standard totting up ban, assuming that you haven't been banned in the last 3 years. It would be truly exceptional for that to be increased on appeal.


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The Rookie
post Fri, 20 Feb 2009 - 03:28
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The fine is related to the offence and its seriousness, the ban either to the offence or for totting, a totting ban carries no fine in itself, the fine for the 'last' offence will relate only to that offence.

S172 carries a fine of 125-175% of your relevant weekly wage (pay less tax and NI ONLY), less a 1/3 discount for an early guilty plea, max fine is £1000 (are you saying you have 4 fines of £1000?)

To be clear, did you get the S172 requests, did you get the summons, if this is the first you have heard (after the hearings) you need to make a statutory decleration that you were unaware of the hearings, this will revert you back to summons stage and then you can contest the charges, this is not the same as an appeal.

Simon


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exponential
post Sun, 22 Feb 2009 - 11:26
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I had moved address and mail wasn't forwarded, I was convicted in absense so I did a stat dec to get the chance to contest it. I went to court to contest and got slammed!
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The Rookie
post Sun, 22 Feb 2009 - 11:41
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What grounds did you contest it on, and why did they not accept those grounds? Instead of drip feeding, can you give us all the info now, why did the NIP/S172's go to the wrong address, was your company not aware of your new one? If not why not?

Given the info I supplied are the fines within guidelines? It sounds like you wouldn't have qualified for the 1/3 discount as you plead not guilty.

6 offences in circa 8 months, thats pretty 'good' going!

Simon


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Pete D
post Sun, 22 Feb 2009 - 12:10
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The NIPS would have gone to your works address not home address. They would/should have return them with your details and no doubt they told you that they had done this, so you would have know that a NIP was on it's way to you and you should have addressed the issue, no pun intended. Explain the other two FtF charges, what address did they go to. Did you not tell the company of your change of address. ? Pete D
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exponential
post Tue, 24 Feb 2009 - 01:22
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All four charges went to a previous home address, not a work address. They weren't forwarded to me. Tis the problem of having ex's who move their new partners in!

As soon as I found out about the charges, I contact the court and 'turned myself in'. The fines were £750 each x 4. But they weren't interested in the speeding charges by this time though.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 24 Feb 2009 - 04:14
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In that case I suggest you make a statutory decleration to the court that the summons(es) were not recieved, this should then revert the cases back to the stage where you will recieve a new summons and you can defend the charges on the basis of not recieveing the S172 request and therefore not responding, you look to have a good defence, if the cases are re-opened the ban will be lifted until they are reheard, so get a move on!

A Stat dec can be made through the courts or a solicitor.

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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exponential
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 22:41
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Having had a clean license for 13 years, I was banned 4 weeks ago for 6 months, in effect for totting (all points issued on the same day), having faced four charges in one case of 'failing to give details of driver' after post for a work car registered in my name went to an old address.

I now have one more charge at a seperate court (Tuesday) and two charges (Wednesday). The time lag was too long for them to be interested in who the speeding drivers were.

Since I am already 'banned', if I am issued further points on Tuesday and Wednesday, what happens to these points? Do I assume that if I get less than 12 points they stay on my license even when I get it back for a further three years (which is grossly unfair as this was a work car and I don't deserve to have these points hanging over my head for the next 3 years having already lost my license!), or alternatively, if I accumulate another 'totting' ban then will this ban runs alongside the current ban - and do you think I have any hope of them cutting the ban down to 5 months to end when the current ban ends?

Need advice quick!!!

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jobo
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:04
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can you explain how the ban came about as it sounds a bit unfair, and what is this new hearing, is it an appeal

This post has been edited by jobo: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:05


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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:06
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You've started a duplicate thread!


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jobo
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:12
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is that seven different speedings, or one speeding and seven charges of failing to supply

if you want help please expand on events


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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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exponential
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:29
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Seven different speeding charges which led to seven different failing to supply driver details. Car is well-used at work.

I have had clean license for 13 years.

I would just like confirmation please that if one gets points whilst one is banned, what happens to those points? And if one gets banned again whilst one in banned, what happens to the ban?
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jobo
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:47
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are you contesting the charges

you were considering appealing did you



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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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andy_foster
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:48
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Generally, if you receive a second totting up ban within 3 years of the first totting up ban, the court is obliged to ban you for 12 months on the second occasion, unless you can show that a ban would cause excessive hardship (particularly to others).

I have no idea whether the circumstances of your case would be an exception to the above - e.g. if subsequent points were applied before you got your licence back, would they count, but suspect that they probably will.

Obviously, its your licence (or not as the case may be), but the obvious thing to look at (and which you seem to be reluctant to discuss), is how you managed to get convicted of multiple s. 172s when it would seem to be trivial to prove that you did not receive the notices.
Even if it is now too late to appeal (21 days), this would seem to be relevant to your next 18 potential points.

Alternatively, just ask the court when you are convicted.


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nemo
post Mon, 9 Mar 2009 - 23:51
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My interpretation is that the first totting ban would wipe the slate clean of any existing points - s29(1(b)) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

If a second penalty points disqualification was to be imposed, even if imposed whilst the first totting ban was being served, then it would be for a minimum of 12 months, effective immediate upon sentence being passed - s35(2) RTOA 1988.

Again, the [newly imposed] existing points would be wiped clean following the second totting disqualification.
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ford poplar
post Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:47
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If it is a works car, not owned by you, is it allocated to you or a pool car?
How many others can legally drive your car inc work colleagues?
Were you driving the vehicle on days / times of offences?
Did the Company get NIPs and send back your details or just forward NIPs to you?

All questions which might lift the fog.

I would guess, subject to Southpaw, any points or ban would apply from date of offences so ban could be extended, but I could be wrong.
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exponential
post Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:50
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No relucatance to discuss details - it's simple - work car registered in my name. I didn't realise car had not been registered over to company. I moved address. Notices went to old property. They were not forwarded to me. Car used as pool car. Seven speeding offences in a 4 month period whilst car remained registered in my name. This turned into seven lots of failing to respond against me. Car was doing about 5000 miles per month.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:50
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:47) *
I would guess, subject to Southpaw, any points or ban would apply from date of offences so ban could be extended, but I could be wrong.


Much as I appreciate the sentiment, Andy and Nemo have already addressed the issue.


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nemo
post Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:54
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Tue, 10 Mar 2009 - 00:47) *
I would guess, subject to Southpaw, any points or ban would apply from date of offences so ban could be extended, but I could be wrong.

Since I've already answered this one, I'll step in for Mr S..

All orders of disqualification are effective immediately upon sentencing. They cannot be postponed (except in cases where an offender has lodged an appeal) and they cannot be made consecutive to any other order of disqualification.
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