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[NIP Wizard] 36mph
post Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 16:07
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2008
Date of the NIP: - 44 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 50 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - no adress stated as the letter is for an alternative driver awareness course
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving along a dual carriageway road that until the speed camera flashed, but as it was raining and i was late for an appointment i did not see any signs and presumed that i was doing the correct speed. upon receiving a penalty notice i went and looked at the road concerned and saw just before the speed camera a very small 30mph notice. This is practically impossible to see as it is so small. I am new to the area and the rain was very heavy when i was driving along, presuming i was doing the correct speed, caught 36mph, in a non residential zone. Therefore I am totally flabbergasted that i am being prosecuted for an offence that i do not think that i have committed.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:07:00 +0000
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post Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 16:07
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post Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 16:09
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Have you ever received an NIP for this offence? If so, input its details into the Wizard.


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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post Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 19:03
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>i was late for an appointment i did not see any signs and presumed that i was doing the correct speed
Signs do not appear and disappear depending on whether youre doing the correct speed or not. You can invest in a sat nav that knows speed limits (though beware that it would be a secondary check, not an authoritative reference). Generally, if there are no signs and there are streetlights ,the area is a 30.

>upon receiving a penalty notice
What, no NIP?

>i went and looked at the road concerned and saw just before the speed camera a very small 30mph notice
Mmm.. coupled with a speed camera logo; a "niceness" I'm afraid. Such signs typically appear within 1 km of a camera but are not an authoritative definition of a 30 mph limit; that's the job of the street lighting system

>This is practically impossible to see as it is so small
As it carries no legal weight in defining the zone to be 30mph, it doesnt matter whether or not it's there at all

>I am new to the area and the rain was very heavy when i was driving along
If you do ignore your speed awareness course offer, have no other legal defence and subsequently get hauled into court, please don't use this argument

>Therefore I am totally flabbergasted that i am being prosecuted for an offence that i do not think that i have committed.
Thing is, in the circumstances (a 30mph limit) you have described, it would be an offence to travel at the speed alleged (36mph). They know that your vehicle committed an offence, all that remains is for them to prove it was you driving.. i.e. your admission to being at that place, time, and in control of that vehicle at that speed

So; when did you admit to it?

This post has been edited by cjard: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 19:05
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post Thu, 29 Jan 2009 - 21:54
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As per what the others have said, assuming that you were not stopped at the time, it seems extremely unlikely that you would have received an offer of a speed awareness course without first having received and responded to a NIP. If that is the case, please explicitly correct us.
The NIP Wizard was asking about the NIP that you presumably received. Filling in information relating to presumably subsequent correspondence is pretty much pointless, other than the free-form "description of events"

Having warmed up the crystal ball, which is currently held together with duck tape after the last careless attempt to fix it, it seems probable that you were driving along what is commonly known as a 'restricted road' - that is to say a road other than a motorway, with a system of streetlighting and no limit set by order (or signed). The limit on such roads is 30 mph, dual carriageway or not - unless there is another limit in force. At some point, most driver's (with the notable exception of our resident smug git) exceed the limit on such roads, unaware that they are exceeding the limit (or that if it's got street lights, and it ain't a motorway, and ain't got signs to the contrary, it's a 30 mph limit).
Not only are standard (diagram 670) repeater signs not required on a restricted road, they are specifically prohibited - although combined speed camera and 30 mph roundel signs (diagram 880) are permitted within 1 km of a camera site.

If there was no system of street lighting, then any defects in the speed limit signage might constitute a defence.

If as suspected, you fell foul of 'common ignorance', count yourself lucky that you have been offered the 'soft option' of a course, rather than losing 1/4 of your driving licence.


"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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