Court date - 20th Jan. |
Court date - 20th Jan. |
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 13:43
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
Court date - 20th Jan. CPS calling the constable who provider a witness statement ?
Anyway - doesn't look they they want a pre trial review. Just straight to it. Finally. At the risk of repeating myself : Unsigned NIP No S271 charge (and has expired...) the form was completed by my girlfriend in my absence - I will obtain a witness statement to confirm. additionally - CPS have a witness statement saying that "the person signing the form" admits to being the driver - but in any case - its NOT signed so the statement is false. I was advised here that they have no evidence - and so there'll be no case to answer. Anyone care to add ? At what stage should I seek disclosure of the photos and concede disclosure of my own witness statement ? There is another issue in that I am being pursued by bailiffs for non payments of fines from the first outcome of this case (heard without me) even though i have had the case re-opened under s142. I'll do this in another thread I think. cheers. |
|
|
Advertisement |
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 13:43
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 14:04
Post
#2
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
QUOTE CPS have a witness statement saying that "the person signing the form" admits to being the driver - but in any case - its NOT signed so the statement is false
Can you post the exact wording of this statement? -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 16:03
Post
#3
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
here we go
"I am Jxxx Bxxxx, Senior Clark employed at the Central Ticket Office, [address]. This office is concerned with the processing of fixed penalty matters. I am able to state from my knowledge of the operation of the system, that it was operating correctly at all material times and I have no grounds for for believing any of the statements produced by the equipment are inaccurate. i like this one the information contained within this statement has been obtained from records ans documents held at the Central Ticket Office in Birminhgam, which have been created or received by persons in the course of a trade, business, profession or occupation, who would have had, or may reasonsably be supposed to have personal knowledge of the matters dealt with. The person(s) who created the records / statements cannot reasonably be expect (having regards to the time, which has elapsed since making the records / statements and to all the circumstances) to have any recollection of the matter dealt with. I am able to say from computer records held by me that on 02/12/2003 information regarding a speeding offence was received at this office. The details of the speeding offence were entered onto the computer system and the CTO reference number Cxxxxx was allocated. I am able to say that the notice was sent by 1st class post on 03/12/2003 to (my mothers address...) = being the registered keeper oF ABCD123 I now produce that notice which states that : In accordance with Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 I hereby give you notice that is is intended to take proceeding against the driver of motor vehicle numbe ABCD123 for the alleged offence of Exceeding Speed Limit 30MPH, recorded speed 46mph at 20:35 on 22/11/2003 at [camera location] - contrary to Section 89(1) RTRA 1984. On 15/12/2003 there was received within the Central Ticket Office a communication in reply this the notice in which the person signing the communication admitted being the driver of the vehicle described in the notice at the time of the alleged offence, which I now produce. A conditional offer of a fixed penalty was made on 23/1/2004 to (,my name, moms address ) . On the 23 /2/2004 - a warning letter was sent to which there was no reply. " phew. |
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 16:19
Post
#4
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
QUOTE in which the person signing the communication admitted being the driver of the vehicle
Take copies of relevant legislation, and enjoy your day out. -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 16:30
Post
#5
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
That confident ??? re-assurance like that is priceless !
So - what should I go with : The duff statement from the Ticket Office ? The unsigned NIP and S9 from my girlfriend ? Both ? And which legislation should i take ? And... And.. Sorry - I just want to finalise my defence in plenty of time. Should I pursue the "the prosecution have no evidence, or "the prosecution's evidence is flawed/unreliable ?" |
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 16:46
Post
#6
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
The CPS are not intending to suggest that the NIP is a 'confession within the meaning of PACE'. They will not have read the case, nor will they intill a few hours before trial.
They expect to read the witness statement, and adduce the NIP as a document compliant with sec 12 RTOA. (have a copy with you). If they notice that it is unsigned atall, they may well keep quiet as you are an unrepresented defendant. If this happens, do not challenge the reading of the witness statement, allow them to 'lead' the exhibit. Then point out the non compliance with sec12 and the falsehood contained in the statement. This would then be very difficult to change direction to a confession as per Yorke and Mawdesley (take copy). You would object as per Gleeson (take a copy) as being 'ambushed'. the case now dies or you demand an adjournment to obtainain a witness statement from your 'agent' who completed the form for you. You will enjoy it. Good preparation will ensure a fun day. -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Mon, 13 Dec 2004 - 17:47
Post
#7
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
Got it.
So chances are they'll proceed with a standard opening - as if it were signed ? We'll hear from the Constable they've said they'll call, read all their statements, and wave the photos around.. When my turns comes... I point out it isn't signed and the statement is false. I assume it might end here ? Should I finish here ? If not -and as you say- , once they've gone this route it's hard for them to say "Even though it's not signed it's still valid" ... but if they do I have RTOA sec 12 (NIP must be signed to be valid), plus Gleeson (to get the an adjourment) plus Yorke & Mawdsely ("it doesnt have my signature because i didnt complete it , it was completed on my behalf" ) if necessary. If the DO notice it's unsigned ? Might they drop ? Hope you dont mind me going on about it....I'm prepared to be nervous in court and so want to be fully re-hearsed. |
|
|
Wed, 15 Dec 2004 - 15:43
Post
#8
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
QUOTE We'll hear from the Constable they've said they'll call,
Where have they said this? -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Wed, 15 Dec 2004 - 16:16
Post
#9
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
....at the adjournment hearing the CPS indicated they'd call PC Benjamin
There's a S9 from him, that says no more than 'a car caused the camera to flash and the camera was working ok etc etc.' I offered that it was a automated camera (bit generous of me , loooking back) , the prosecutor approach the the bench and asked for a minute from the the magistrate...then came over to me and said "Yes iits a camera case but we're calling the officer as witness who will have the photos of your car". I had no problem with that but cant figure out why ? It proves (as you pointed out) they havent read the case at all and It would only take 10 mins. Would it be as base as to : a) bump up costs ? B) intimidate me with a uniform on the stand ? or is c) just clumsy ? I'm happy to type up his statement - but even on close inspection , it just says "the device triggered, a photo was taken, it is a good camera, so we passed the information along" jj |
|
|
Wed, 15 Dec 2004 - 16:36
Post
#10
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
i think they were just a bit twitchy about calibration or corroberation type questions which would be easy to satisfy if the PC. was giving oral evidence.
Remember, you have pleaded not guilty, you have not, nor will you give them a reason why you believe you will win. I'd be nervous and covering as many options as I could forsee in thier position. -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Thu, 20 Jan 2005 - 17:11
Post
#11
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
Whilst I'm happy with my case and defence, I wondered is anyone had any personal tips for the court appearance. Yes, I know to be respectful and yes, I'm smart enough not to turn up in tracksuit.
I'm even prepared to address the prosecution as 'my friend' I just wonder if anyone had any personal tips. Thats all. jj. |
|
|
Thu, 20 Jan 2005 - 17:24
Post
#12
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 17 Oct 2003 Member No.: 433 |
Don't know why I hadn't spotted this before but the prosecution argument you need to be prepared for is that the unsigned response, although not satisfying s.12, is sufficient to give rise to a case to answer. If the prosecution can get half-way, you would be in trouble because, for obvious reasons, you cannot take the stand so it would be possible for the court to draw adverse inference.
Is there sufficient evidence of driver identity to give rise to a case to answer? That's arguable either way. It seems to me the court could infer that you completed the form and you can not rebut this without giving direct testimony. Not saying this will happen - just pointing out a risk you should prepare against. -------------------- |
|
|
Thu, 20 Jan 2005 - 18:23
Post
#13
|
|
Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,221 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
QUOTE (Observer) Don't know why I hadn't spotted this before but the prosecution argument you need to be prepared for is that the unsigned response, although not satisfying s.12, is sufficient to give rise to a case to answer.
The judgement is Mawdesley seems to imply it does more than raise a case to answer. edit: Oops! Didn't notice that he is Yorke compliant :oops: -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
|
|
Thu, 20 Jan 2005 - 20:33
Post
#14
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 62 Joined: 26 Feb 2004 Member No.: 930 |
Much the same as my case last year, my wife completed the form as I was away and did not sign it. She took the stand and was well grilled by the prostitution trying to get her to admit that she completed it under my instruction and that i therefore had confessed through her. Mrs Patch made no such admission maintaining that she had simply been told to "deal with it".
They still found me guilty at Magistrates court. But as we know the lower courts are fundementally corrupt. Took an appeal to Crown Court and the caved in the evening before the hearing. I was represented for both by JJ. My costs were covered. |
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 08:17
Post
#15
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Newbury Member No.: 1,625 |
Not wanting to rain on anybody's parade, but.......
Could it be that for once the CPS are on the ball and calling the PC is to obtain testimony from him of identification? |
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 08:58
Post
#16
|
|
Member Group: Administrators Posts: 9,760 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wiltshire, UK Member No.: 4 |
QUOTE (patdavies) Not wanting to rain on anybody's parade, but.......
Could it be that for once the CPS are on the ball and calling the PC is to obtain testimony from him of identification? In my opinion, it would be a good thing if they were. It’s about time the CPS started to use their resources more wisely and treated the prosecution of speeding motorists, with the gravity that the crime deserves. All this: “well, I didn’t read the file until this morning…” and “what traffic video?” just isn’t good enough. -------------------- Regards, Mika
Useful Info: 1 Read This First 2. 14-day Rule; 3. 6-month Rule. 4. NIP Wizard. 5. Success Stories. |
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 11:35
Post
#17
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
Catch up everyone .. This has been knocking around for a year and I'm in court this afternoon - no last minute doubters if you dont mind ! :-) I'm here for a confidence boost !
1. Although I haven't sought to examine the photographs - I've not heard of people being identified by a GATSO. Also at this late stage, if they identify me from a picture - it's ambush. Their case is built on my - supposed self incrimination. Mikas is right though, and I expressed this opinion elsewhere : a 'fair cop' is a 'fair cop', automatic and unlawful convictions are not. 2. Yorke compliance is neither herre nor there : S172 timed out sometime in the summer. 3. Observer : good spot, and I do need to be on my toes. However, as cjm99 as stated, if they decide to try establish that an unsigned form is admissable, it represents a change of direction and again - I should be able establish ambush (due to their other S9's ) and get adjournment to obtain my own S9 - which I don't have yet. 4. While I shall avoid taking the stand, i can answer in good conscience "I dont know" to almost everything because the camera flashed on 22/Nov 2003. My challenge is to keep the proceedings on my track, and not be diverted. And thats why I have copious notes and a stubborn Missus coming with me. Thanks Gents. |
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 11:49
Post
#18
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 420 Joined: 24 Oct 2003 Member No.: 455 |
Not a lot to add, but all the best mate - what time's your hearing (I hope it wasn't yesterday, as per the topic title )?
|
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 12:02
Post
#19
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 148 Joined: 28 Jan 2004 Member No.: 820 |
Show starts at 13:45 COurt 18 in the second City of Birmingham ( now with not one but two Michelin starred eateries http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-...1449915,00.html )
I'm taking the train becuase I'll almost certainly have drink afterwards. If not Champagne, then vodka. There's a wine bar over road, called Mckenzies believe it or not :-) |
|
|
Fri, 21 Jan 2005 - 14:06
Post
#20
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 5,109 Joined: 16 Dec 2003 From: Manchester Member No.: 675 |
Good luck DoubleJ
Post as soon as you get back. :D -------------------- Chris
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Bush Acoustic Music Club Acoustic Folk at the Nursery Inn Tameside folk concerts |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Wednesday, 17th April 2024 - 17:04 |