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Appealing Against a DVLA SORN Decision?
The Doctor
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 09:29
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I am currently involved in a dispute with the DVLA, I am absolutely fed up with the way they treat the innocent motorist and will not listen to common sense and feel someone has to take a stand.

When one of my cars road fund licence came up for renewal I encountered a problem my insurance company got themselves in a mess and kept a) not issuing a certificate and b) not updating the computer register to show my car was insured, as a result I was obviously thwarted in my attempts to buy a road fund licence.

Calls every two to three days to my insurance company assured me each time that the problem would be resolved in 24 to 48 hours in the end it actually took them over 6 weeks!

As a result the DVLA are trying to fine me for not registering the car as SORN. I have pointed out to the DVLA that if I had had any idea the situation would take so long to resolve I would of course have taken the necessary steps but as I was frequently assured the problem was a day from being resolved I did what I believe any reasonable person would do and kept waiting for the correct document in order to get the road fund licence.

Surely the road fund licence and SORN laws are there to deal with people who intentionally do not tax their vehicles and intend to illegally use them on our roads as a result. Surely they are not there to penalise someone like myself, a 92 (yes ninety-two) year old doctor, who through no fault of his own was late in purchasing the road fund licence.

I am more than prepared to go to court and appeal against a decision if necessary, they have now put the case in the hands of a debt collector but surely there must be a method of appealing a decision like this and trying to get someone to take a common sense approach to this and hopefully other similar cases?
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post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 09:29
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dave-o
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 09:42
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Are they allowed to pass this to a debt collection agency without it having gone to court?


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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Pigfarmer
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 11:50
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Yes. The DCA is just trying to collect the cash.

I had similar with a car that I had sent to the breakers whilst on a SORN and the moved house. No post, nothing until the DCA sent the threatening letter.

Has the OP contacted the insurance co to get them to put in writing that there was a problem with production of a certificate ?

Write to DCA saying debt is in dispute ?
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The Doctor
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:11
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QUOTE (Pigfarmer @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:50) *
Yes. The DCA is just trying to collect the cash.

I had similar with a car that I had sent to the breakers whilst on a SORN and the moved house. No post, nothing until the DCA sent the threatening letter.

Has the OP contacted the insurance co to get them to put in writing that there was a problem with production of a certificate ?

Write to DCA saying debt is in dispute ?


Hello,

I have contacted the insurance company, they agreed to provide evidence to help me with the DVLA but so far it is proving as easy as it was to get the insurance certificate out of them! In the meantime the DVLA have been provided with the name, direct dial number and reference numbers if they so wish to check my story themselves.

I have written to the DCA and explained the matter is in dispute and enclosed my correspondence with the DVLA, it hasn't stopped their harassing phone calls, text messages to my landline etc or their threats to come and tow my car away though.
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dave-o
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:17
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A couple of things here, maybe someone has answers:

1) The DCA has no right to take his car without some form of court order or warrant - correct?

2) In the situation, i think he has every right to request from BT (or whoever) that the DCA's phone number be barred from calling his line, because of harrassment. I dealt with a problem in which a certain fax number kept calling my landline. With a minimum of fuss, BT barred their phone number from contacting me.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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The Doctor
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:23
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QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:17) *
A couple of things here, maybe someone has answers:

1) The DCA has no right to take his car without some form of court order or warrant - correct?

2) In the situation, i think he has every right to request from BT (or whoever) that the DCA's phone number be barred from calling his line, because of harrassment. I dealt with a problem in which a certain fax number kept calling my landline. With a minimum of fuss, BT barred their phone number from contacting me.


I am sure you are quite correct. To be honest I am not too worried about this as I am sure it is not something they will try, it is just indicative of the DVLA's ridiculous attitude to this problem that they have engaged the services of a company such as this rather than apply some common sense to this matter.

My main query is how does one go about bringing pressure on the DVLA to at least consider my position rather than sticking to black and white answers.
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Glacier2
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:28
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Is there no appeals procedure? Can you elect to go to court?
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dave-o
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:30
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TBH i don't see there's much more you can do except keep hassling your insurance people for proof, and then supply this.

Have you tried asking to speak to someone higher up in the food chain at the DVLA?


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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The Doctor
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:34
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:28) *
Is there no appeals procedure? Can you elect to go to court?


One of the things I am trying to ascertain is whether or not there is an appeals procedure, it was Googleing 'Appealing the DVLA' that actually brought me to this forum!

I have made it clear in writing to both the DVLA and DCA by letter sent Recorded Delivery that I will if necessary go to court and defend the action.
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The Doctor
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:35
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QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:30) *
TBH i don't see there's much more you can do except keep hassling your insurance people for proof, and then supply this.

Have you tried asking to speak to someone higher up in the food chain at the DVLA?


I would if there was an option on the DVLA switchboard that would seem to take you in the right direction to do this!
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dave-o
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 12:38
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QUOTE (The Doctor @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:35) *
QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:30) *
TBH i don't see there's much more you can do except keep hassling your insurance people for proof, and then supply this.

Have you tried asking to speak to someone higher up in the food chain at the DVLA?


I would if there was an option on the DVLA switchboard that would seem to take you in the right direction to do this!



Can you maybe find some info online about who is higher in command at the DVLA and ask for them by name?

It does seem like a stupid waste of everybody's time, and the small fry at the DVLA probably won't be bothered to say anything other than "computer says no".


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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bama
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:03
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IMV you only ever get 'the official line' from anyone at the DVLA.
this is a well known cash machine for them.

I have read that:-
"An official appeals procedure has not been established, however, DVLA will treat each case on merit and will view genuine cases with sympathy."

yeah right - they have jumped to the DCA.


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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whitewing
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 20:36
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Assuming it is a DCA and not a bailiff, Why are DVLA passing to a DCA, who can't actually do anything, rather than getting a court warrant?
Is it because they know they havea weak case?

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Teufel
post Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 20:57
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no independent appeal is a clear breach of natural justice under the common law and the convention rights of art 6 of the ECHR securrd by the HRA 1998


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zamzara
post Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 10:47
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QUOTE (whitewing @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 21:36) *
Assuming it is a DCA and not a bailiff, Why are DVLA passing to a DCA, who can't actually do anything, rather than getting a court warrant?
Is it because they know they havea weak case?


This rather suggests to me that they have no way of enforcing these penalties. Has anyone faced real enforcement action? Does anyone know the relevant legislation that allows the DVLA to issue them?


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Posts by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.
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Glacier2
post Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 12:39
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Do the DVLA come out and clamp the offending vehicle?

Would this £80 penalty come into play when you attempted to get a VED? You get to the post office and they say there is a £80 outstanding and we can't give you a VED unless you pay this now?
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Neil B
post Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 13:04
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 13:39) *
Do the DVLA come out and clamp the offending vehicle?


They are already routinely patrolling and yes they will clamp, tow and/or crush. They use those lovey people NCP as a contractor.

Get this from the the website >> "Your car does not have to be seen on the road for an offence to have been committed".

What? Frightening!

No mention of appeals procedure at all.

Just one suggestion to start with. Make a formal complaint if you can't make an appeal. Throw the ball back at them by complaing about their actions and attitude. At the very least it will put them on notice that you are not going to roll-over easily. As a public body they will have to investigate and respond.

Wish I could help more.

-


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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southpaw82
post Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 17:45
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There absolutely has to be an avenue of appeal. This is a fine and therefore punitive in effect. Article 6 ECHR guarantees the right to a fair hearing, in public, before an independent tribunal. The UK government has already conceded so in Scarth v UK.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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patdavies
post Mon, 23 Jun 2008 - 09:45
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QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 13:30) *
TBH i don't see there's much more you can do except keep hassling your insurance people for proof, and then supply this.

Have you tried asking to speak to someone higher up in the food chain at the DVLA?



Proof from the insurance company is not going to be of any help whatsoever.

If there was no valid VED, then it should not have been used on the road and SORN declared.

Even if SORN only lasted a few days, it doesn't matter - SORN is automatically lifted by the act of obtaining VED.

I sympathise with the OP, but technically, the DVLA is right - this is the whole point of continuous VED or SORN - there should be no gap..
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patdavies
post Mon, 23 Jun 2008 - 09:47
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 18:45) *
There absolutely has to be an avenue of appeal. This is a fine and therefore punitive in effect. Article 6 ECHR guarantees the right to a fair hearing, in public, before an independent tribunal. The UK government has already conceded so in Scarth v UK.



You can force it to a Magistrates' Court, but I am not sure how you go about it.
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