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OT: Parking Ticket outside football stadium
eddie1234567
post Tue, 12 Oct 2004 - 21:23
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A bit off topic from Speeding, but just wondering what people think

Last weekend I went to a party down at Aberdeen football stadium and took the car which I parked just around the corner, since I was drinking I did look for where "I thought it would be safe to park" as I planned a hangover for sunday morning so didn't plan to take the car anywhere

I had heard on the radio that Aberdeen had played away that day and I hadn't heard anything about and concerts or anything on at Pittodrie.

So when I saw that parking restrictions are on during events giving 3 times which I take it are football game standard times (big sports fan me icon_eek.gif ), I took it for granted that I was ok. There being no notification of when an event was on.

You got it, on Sunday there was a ticket icon_evil.gif

I am writing a letter to the council just now appealing it on grounds that the period of restriction was not fully displayed, ie they gave specific times but not on the other part of the information ie which days these apply, just a general statement of "an event". So with not providing this then they are just asking people to make assumptions and contravene the regs.

The parking warden, who was a nice enough guy (probably has to be), said that it would have probably been advertised that Inverness Cally Thistle were at home that day in the sports pages (yeah, I read them - not). Now if I did read the papers then I realy would have associated Inverness playing at home to mean Aberdeen, 100 miles south of where they should be.

Anyone have any thoughts on whether this will fly nor not

Eddie
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post Tue, 12 Oct 2004 - 21:23
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DW190
post Tue, 12 Oct 2004 - 22:44
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Its sounds a little bit similar to This Chaps Escapade He parked when it was ok only to come back and find a ticket on his car. This case was a little naughty though.


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eddie1234567
post Thu, 14 Oct 2004 - 13:40
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What a bunch of Twonks. It realy gets me down when "our councils" are just acting like a private business out to screw as much out of us as possible.

Anyway, I have found on the HMSO site

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

Which gives the types of signs allowed (eventually way down the page), but it doesn't realy say about wording ie if you say times you must specify exactly when they are inforce or somthing to that effect.

Anyone have any other pointers to this or can councils just make vagues statements like that
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seylectric
post Fri, 19 Nov 2004 - 23:22
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Seems to me the councils can do what the hell they like.

I got (another) parking ticket the other day whilst unloading (unmarked estate car). I sent back the ticket with my defence (that unloading was legal) and included a note from the owner of the hotel I was delivering to confirming this, but my appeal was still rejected because the car was locked up when the ticket was issued - yeah, because I don't want £3000 worth of gear nicking out of my car!

It seems that virtually every claim is rejected by the council no matter what the circumstances, according to a local warden.

Their argument in this case was there is a loading bay nearby (it's about 50 yards up the road, on the opposite side); but like that's got anything to do with it anyway - I was still not commiting an offence!

Another con is that by the time you have received your reply the "pay within 14 days and pay only £30 instead of £60" offer has expired. That's wrong - the time period should be suspended from the time you make your complaint to the time you recieve the reply.

But the real issue that annoys me (and proves it's just another money-making scam) is the fact that d-y lines are often painted where there is no need, i.e. where you are not likely to be causing an obstruction, which is surely their intended purpose - such as a local cul-de-sac that doesn't even access any property and is thus virtually unused anyway.
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Philwalker_wba
post Fri, 19 Nov 2004 - 23:51
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Most parking tickets issued can firstly be appealed to the council and then to a higher body, cant recall exactly the name, but its an appeal tribunal type body, someone here will know it.

However the point is that the vast majority of the appeals to this body go uncontested by the councils and the fine is quashed.

Hope this helps both.

Phil
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eddie1234567
post Sat, 20 Nov 2004 - 00:03
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Well after the council rejecting my appeal icon_evil.gif , I wrote back telling them to go stuff themselves icon_twisted.gif and I was still not paying it and wished to take it to the Scottish Parking Appeals service.

Got a letter from their legal dept today saying that they think that it should be cancelled in this circumstances, WITH MY PLEA OF MITIGATION.... AAAGGHH what plea of mitigation that usually means you did somthing wrong icon_eek.gif and they are now forgiving me. I am still adament that their signs don't meet the legal requirments of notification and that was why I ended up contravening the regs in the first place, so I was in the right all along and don't need their patronising forgiveness

I'll copy letter I sent them and their reply and post it up someone with better understanding of these things can probably let us know what they think
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eddie1234567
post Sat, 20 Nov 2004 - 09:56
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Here are the letters between me and the council

http://uk.geocities.com/eddieh@btinternet....plyToAppeal.htm
://http://uk.geocities.com/eddieh@btin...yToAppeal.htm
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jeffreyarcher
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 00:18
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QUOTE (eddie1234567)
<...> and their reply and post it up someone with better understanding of these things can probably let us know what they think

What are you on about, Eddie; they're dropping it?
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DW190
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 00:50
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There is something at the end of page two of the letter of the 16 that may be of interest.

It mentions the decriminalising of parking offences and passing the enforcement to the councils from the police by legislation.

Has there any similar legislation been passed in relation to exceeding the speed limit which would allow civilians to form an opinion of speed (Criminal Matter).

I know this is Scotland but should there not be the need for such legislation.


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jeffreyarcher
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 01:10
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QUOTE (DW190)
It mentions the decriminalising of parking offences and passing the enforcement to the councils from the police by legislation.
Has there any similar legislation been passed in relation to exceeding the speed limit which would allow civilians to form an opinion of speed (Criminal Matter).

The 'decriminilised' parking legislation originally only applied to London (1994 IIRC), but was rolled out nationally in 1991 (IIRC).
It only applies to parking, although there is currently legislation going through parliament to allow other offences (e.g. box junctions). AFAIK, speeding is not included in this new legislation either.
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DW190
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 01:20
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
QUOTE (DW190)
It mentions the decriminalising of parking offences and passing the enforcement to the councils from the police by legislation.
Has there any similar legislation been passed in relation to exceeding the speed limit which would allow civilians to form an opinion of speed (Criminal Matter).

The 'decriminilised' parking legislation originally only applied to London (1994 IIRC), but was rolled out nationally in 1991 (IIRC).
It only applies to parking, although there is currently legislation going through parliament to allow other offences (e.g. box junctions). AFAIK, speeding is not included in this new legislation either.


(e.g. box junctions). The type of offence that can be identified by camera.

What I mean is they had to have parking decriminalised to allow the councils (civvies) to issue tickets (enforcement)

This must be the same for speeding. While it remains a criminal offence it can only be enforced by police (officers)


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Bluedart
post Sun, 21 Nov 2004 - 12:10
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Eddie1234567
I know this is no comfort to you, and I wish you well. I will give you my stories, in very brief detail, both to do with parking. very briefly.
(1) Fixed penalty on my vehicle, no sign to say that I could not park. I mounted a challenge. I appeared in court. Mags said"because her argument(her being the Traffic Warden) was more convincing than mine, guilty, fined £70 with £35 costs. I asked for a discount, if I paid cash now. NO.
Next some time after the first.
(2)FPN for parking on a road, with seasonal parking restrictions, well within the restrictions. I did nothing. I mean nothing. I wanted to see, how far things would go before someone realized, that there may be a mistake in issuing a FPN.
It went on so long, I had the baliffs banging on my door, with ALL their legal threats, soon got shot of them. Eventually, confronted the Mags clerks office, presented my evidence. I will not go into details. Ended up with a police inspector, calling on me 1930hrs on a Sunday night, asking me not to take the matter any futher, as we (police) would end up with egg all over our face, (I agreed) but not ever again. In both events it was only moral victoies of sorts.
I am now taking them on bigtime, with I hope not just a moral victory.
Remember their is time and money in what we do!!

Peter
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eddie1234567
post Fri, 26 Nov 2004 - 19:42
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
QUOTE (eddie1234567)
<...> and their reply and post it up someone with better understanding of these things can probably let us know what they think

What are you on about, Eddie; they're dropping it?


Yep got the confirmation letter from the "Parking Manager" today confirming the letter from the legal dept.

But still annoyed that they are "forgiving me" for somthing I shouldn't have been penalised for.

I'm tempted to write back and quote all the good stuff you gave me jeffrey and see what they do/say. Probabl just turn round and say the subject is closed now

But cheers for all your help Jeffrey, the pointers and info you gave me re-inforced all my points to them, just want a chance to use them now icon_twisted.gif
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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 29 Nov 2004 - 00:25
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QUOTE (eddie1234567)
I'm tempted to write back and quote all the good stuff you gave me jeffrey and see what they do/say. Probabl just turn round and say the subject is closed now
But cheers for all your help Jeffrey, the pointers and info you gave me re-inforced all my points to them, just want a chance to use them now icon_twisted.gif

You could always write back to their legal guy asking him that, since the order and its application are clearly non-compliant with the law (confirmed by case law), what steps the are going to take to refund all the fraudulently extorted 'fines' to their victims, both since the 'decriminalised' system was put in place, and before. All the way back to the start, including when Grampian Regional Council was in existence, because Aberdeen Council are the successor body. icon_wink.gif
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eddie1234567
post Sat, 10 Jun 2006 - 18:01
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Could this be moved to the parking ticket forum

Cheers
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eddie1234567
post Sun, 11 Jun 2006 - 08:48
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Ah time to drag up the past.

After a year and a half, just had a chance to get back down to Pitodrie, while there took a wee photo of the sign that enforces the parking.

Attached Image


Wish I had challenged it further back then, but what the heck. Does anyone believe this sign to be valid.

I can't match it with any other in the TSRO
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Ziltro
post Sun, 11 Jun 2006 - 17:29
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QUOTE (eddie1234567 @ Sun, 11 Jun 2006 - 09:48) *
Does anyone believe this sign to be valid.

Hell no.
It's very confusing.
The top section sais "parking is allowed at any time"
The bottom bit sais "no parking during these hours" and also implies that you shouldn't park during events at the statium, whenever they are.

It is confusing and possibly encitement to commit an offence?

Asuming there is a traffic order in place anyway.... rolleyes.gif


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eddie1234567
post Sun, 11 Jun 2006 - 18:39
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QUOTE (Ziltro @ Sun, 11 Jun 2006 - 18:29) *
Hell no.
It's very confusing.
The top section sais "parking is allowed at any time"
The bottom bit sais "no parking during these hours" and also implies that you shouldn't park during events at the statium, whenever they are.

It is confusing and possibly encitement to commit an offence?

Asuming there is a traffic order in place anyway.... rolleyes.gif


That was my argument with the council

One when is an event on, what is an event. The day of the party that this all started was for an event for annual sick children appeal.

Other times we have been there have been for training events...........

Being a bit pedantic I know but it is whether this sign falls within the allowable signs, I say it is not as the legislation examples all say no variation allowed and they specify exact dates/times when parking is in force where this one just says times when we won't tell you when an event is on
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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 12 Jun 2006 - 01:38
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Why are you still pursuing this? I thought they dropped it.
Or is it because the signs are still there?
It does not compy with the TSRGDs.
However, the Secretary of State for Scotland (now the Scottish ministers post devolution) have the authority to issue permission for non-prescribed signs.
They may have done so; you'll have to ask the council.
If they have one, get a copy of it.

As Ziltro said, there would also have to be a traffic order in place.
The council may well have put the same words in the traffic order, in which case it gets harder.

We'd have to check the RTRA 1984 to see if it is more specific on the point.
Unfortunately, there's lots of amendments to it.
However, the signs themselves must convey the information, I would say. MacLeod v Hamilton, although it's not exactly on point, as the prescribed signs hadn't been provided.

First things first; check if there is a special permission.
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eddie1234567
post Mon, 12 Jun 2006 - 06:43
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Mon, 12 Jun 2006 - 02:38) *
Why are you still pursuing this? I thought they dropped it.
Or is it because the signs are still there?
It does not compy with the TSRGDs.
However, the Secretary of State for Scotland (now the Scottish ministers post devolution) have the authority to issue permission for non-prescribed signs.
They may have done so; you'll have to ask the council.
If they have one, get a copy of it.

As Ziltro said, there would also have to be a traffic order in place.
The council may well have put the same words in the traffic order, in which case it gets harder.

We'd have to check the RTRA 1984 to see if it is more specific on the point.
Unfortunately, there's lots of amendments to it.
However, the signs themselves must convey the information, I would say. MacLeod v Hamilton, although it's not exactly on point, as the prescribed signs hadn't been provided.

First things first; check if there is a special permission.


Yep the signs are still there (didn't realy expect them to change them). I don't think they have special permission as they would have (maybe) mentioned it in their letter dropping the ticket at the time. I'll get a FOI request off when I get to work. Is there a specific reg under which this would be issued. If I ask for the wrong terminology they may turn around and say we don't have one of them even though they have one of the other

For the traffic order would this be just a standard order saying that restrictions are in place just as they are for any other parking restriction i.e. the one outside my house, or would it have to be one for each event
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