pcn in suspended bay! |
Helping the motorist get justice
Helping the motorist get justice
pcn in suspended bay! |
 Thu, 17 May 2007 - 00:42
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068  |
Hi all, i bookmarked the website approx a week ago, as i thought the information was very useful,
 little did i know i would need to get some advice so quick  I done some searching & see a lot of information. but thought I'd run this past you. I live on a CPZ road, (London borough of Brent) to which i am a resident, & correct permit for these bays, we have long bays where approx 8-10 cars can park in a row. On coming home on the 15th of May at around 11pm, i parked in one of these bays, & am entitled to do. I normally try to get the last or first bay, which makes getting in or out easier, ie no car up your backside. This morning i received a pcn for parking in a suspended bay. The notice which i must admit has being up for at least 5 days is strapped to a big old tree, around halfway down the bays, 3-4 car lengths from where i parked, at night you would not notice a sign there because of lighting conditions or a van parked by the tree obscuring the majority of the view of the suspended bay notice. I assumed the notice attached to the tree was something to do with tree felling, i never really noticed it, or read it. The tree in question is the last place i would park my car, because my car would be covered in bird crap the next day, i wouldn't even stand under the tree for the same reason. I checked the sign after getting the pcn & it mentions bay suspended for a month, in area opposite no's 8-18 or words to that effect. (not exact wording) Where my car was parked, by my passenger door is the sign on a pole saying permit holders only time between 8.30 & 6.30, actually this sign has being twisted to face the pavement not the road. There is no mention on this official street furniture of parking bay suspension, shouldn't this have had a sign attached. surely signs attached to tree's can't be legal? why would i have any need to look at a tree for parking rules/regs. There is a sign on the other side of the road, attached to a disabled bay sign, you would assume this was a disabled bay being suspended. surely I don't have to read signs that are not on the same side of the road I'm parking on. Also noticed that the PCN does not have a way to make representations, until they send NTO in 28 days, that means the charge goes from £40 to £80 if not paid in 14 days. I will take some photo's tomorrow, as didn't have time today, which will have the correct wordings. Anyhow, whats your opinion so far. God I hate CPZ's & Parking, never agreed to it when it was foisted upon us Cheers John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Thu, 17 May 2007 - 14:28 |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 00:42
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 14:13
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Hi all again, took some pics today, & their are only two signs, one attached to the tree & one attached 45 degrees opposite to where my car was parked, sign attached on a disabled bay sign pole.
After reading this forum one thing that struck me was the wording. On one, it say's '5 bays opp 8-18', on the other sign it says '5 bays O\S 10-20' there are no house's opposite the sign, just a school playing field. Maybe it's only one sign for each side of the road. Also I noted that the word O\S is not a known name or acronym as it doesnt necessarily mean opposite. Below are some pics, & a scan of the pcn. my car is the vectra, & is in the spot where it was ticketed. http://www.putfile.com/johnspics/images/108699 Please view them in reverse order, 11-1 Any advice please John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Thu, 17 May 2007 - 14:20 |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 14:26
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,783 Joined: 6 Jul 2006 Member No.: 6,518 |
pls read the threads on suspended bays (search) and the patas cases
this will answer most of yr ??s |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 14:35
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
I am looking & have so far found nothing quite relevent, i done searches, with +tree, +tree+bay+suspended.
Haven't read all yet. Lots of info to sift through. Cheers for the reply though
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:01
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#5
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 4,428 Joined: 19 Oct 2003 From: Lancashire Member No.: 436 |
QUOTE (anotherticket @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 15:35)  I am looking & have so far found nothing quite relevent, i done searches, with +tree, +tree+bay+suspended. Haven't read all yet. Lots of info to sift through. Cheers for the reply though Pcn says "To the driver" RTA states Owner Liability. What house number was your car parked outside? -------------------- DW190
BLUNT PENCILS ARE MORE RELIABLE THAN SHARP MEMORIES |^^^^^^^^^^^\|| |www.PePiPoo.com_||'""|""\_____ |_________________||__ |__|____|) |(@) |(@)""**|(@)(@)**|(@)|(@) Frequently Asked Questions |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:44
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
QUOTE (DW190 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 19:01) QUOTE (anotherticket @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 15:35) I am looking & have so far found nothing quite relevent, i done searches, with +tree, +tree+bay+suspended. Haven't read all yet. Lots of info to sift through. Cheers for the reply though Pcn says "To the driver" RTA states Owner Liability. What house number was your car parked outside? The house directly opposite where I was parked is number 18. meaning across the street, there are no house's on the side of road that I'm parked on. Cannot read the house numbers at night. When i parked up, my back would be towards the sign on the opposite side of the road, the other would be away from the direction i would walk, i would never pass the tree to get home. As said above both signs contradict themselves in house numbers included in suspension. Tree sign says '5 bays opp 8-18', the other sign says '5 bays O\S 10-20' both have the same reference number PH/BS/1373. These two signs are pertaining to the same reference but have totally different wording & meaning. The nearest signage Pole to where the Bay suspension is to be carried out, was directly beside my car, no suspended bay notice on this sign, this is the sign in the pic's above which is twisted to face the pavement. Added 2 more pics, that try to show both signs in relation to each other, & the twisted sign where my car was parked, here's one of them  Should I take pics at night? Also as I'm a resident with parking permit, should we not have had a correspondence or note attached to the car, saying that suspension was going to be taking place, nothing galls me more that having to pay for the privilege to park on my street, & then end up with a pcn. I really, really, really hate, all this social engineering of society which has happened in the last 10 years  I've decided to fight this all the way, whatever the outcome John P |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:48
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,783 Joined: 6 Jul 2006 Member No.: 6,518 |
a pcn is addressed to the driver
i dont think this makes it invalid - the stuff on to is clear and correct |
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:50
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#8
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
QUOTE (anotherticket @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 19:44) I've decided to fight this all the way, whatever the outcome For starters that bay is not marked out correctly so it is unenforceable. See this website page for details. -------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:56
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#9
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 Member Group: Members Posts: 1,119 Joined: 21 Jun 2005 From: Poole, Dorset Member No.: 3,211 |
Can they "suspend" a bay if the lines are painted wrong, as they are there?
And why do vandals do grafiti when they could pull the restriction signs down instead? Edit: Snap?  Oh, and also you mentioned signs across the road - they do not apply. Only signs the same side of a bay apply. This post has been edited by Ziltro: Thu, 17 May 2007 - 18:57 -------------------- Andrew.
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Thu, 17 May 2007 - 23:06
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Cool thanks. I see that the bays are wrong, nice one.
I don't want to throw all the ammunition at them in one go, rather go for a measured approach I'm still intrigued about sticking a sign on a tree, it's not official street furniture, why would i need to look at tree's for parking regs. If i had a dog, i'm sure i would be hanging around trees more. The correct place should have being on the pole where my car was parked. On my rough calculations, the suspended bays are the equivalent of five house's, which i work out at 22 feet a house * 5= 110ft. Only one sign for that distance? Why is there a sign on the opposite side? Thanks again, never trusted PA's, I drove off once in Westminster, whilst PA was writing a pcn, i knew it had to be handed or attached to the car, i appealed, but PA wrote in is book that it was served, & the adjudicator always believes the PA's  If there going to play dirty, so will I  Links to my pics http://www.putfile.com/johnspics/images/108699 John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Thu, 17 May 2007 - 23:11 |
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Fri, 18 May 2007 - 06:10
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
Your photos help portray a compelling case.
1. The bay is incorrectly marked. 2. Timeplate sign not facing the road 3. Parking suspension sign not on the same pole as the timeplate (as it is on the opposite side of the road) 4. Suspension sign has incorrect number of bays: It says five bays whereas there is only one. When a bay is actually suspended is there not a legal requirement to cover up the normal signs? (I ask this out of ignorance) -------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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Fri, 18 May 2007 - 10:13
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Just noted on the 'Borough of Brent web site', that you can appeal on line
http://www.brent.gov.uk/services.nsf/9754f...33;OpenDocument Half way down the page it says- If you disagree with the fine... You can appeal against a parking ticket online by emailing here There are also other ways of making an appeal. Find out more on appealing against a parking ticket. If I appeal using this route, does that freeze the payment at the reduced rate, or is it better to wait for the NTO after 28 days. Edit, just found that you have to wait until you receive a NTO, by clicking on the "more on appealing against a parking ticket." link. Looks like i will be appealing using- " The Traffic Order was invalid i.e. the Council did not comply with the statutory requirements when making the Order." John P |
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Sat, 19 May 2007 - 05:27
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
It is most likely that Brent will reject your appeal, not because you are wrong, but because most councils routinely do so. To help your case if/when it goes to PATAS you should obtain a copy of the relevant traffic orders. These can be obtained using the Freedom of Information Act 2000. There will be the the original order for the parking bay, and I believe that there has to be another for the suspension of the bay(s). These documents have to be produced within 20 working days.
-------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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Sat, 19 May 2007 - 11:51
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 294 Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,319 |
QUOTE (anotherticket @ Fri, 18 May 2007 - 11:13) Just noted on the 'Borough of Brent web site', that you can appeal on line http://www.brent.gov.uk/services.nsf/9754f...33;OpenDocument Half way down the page it says- If you disagree with the fine... You can appeal against a parking ticket online by emailing here There are also other ways of making an appeal. Find out more on appealing against a parking ticket. If I appeal using this route, does that freeze the payment at the reduced rate, or is it better to wait for the NTO after 28 days. Edit, just found that you have to wait until you receive a NTO, by clicking on the "more on appealing against a parking ticket." link. Looks like i will be appealing using- " The Traffic Order was invalid i.e. the Council did not comply with the statutory requirements when making the Order." John P You will need to check with the council whether they will freeze the penalty at the reduced rate if you challenge. Some do, some don't...but none are required to! |
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Sat, 19 May 2007 - 21:50
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
I have appealed anyway, sent to there email address, i've had a auto response, informing me that they have received it.
On the Freedom of info act, should i apply for that now, or wait for the rejection? Is it the TMO/TRO's, I should be asking for? As an aside, I thought parking was all about, keeping traffic moving, It's not it's a very lucrative business, & they need to think more & more ways to claw back money, as drivers are more savvy than a few years ago. I just looked at a TRO pdf, for Brent council, they lost a case which would cost them 1.5m, so what did they do, they increased all the parking charges in the borough, what a shower of S**t. Here's the PDF if your interested. http://www.brent.gov.uk/commins.nsf/4858a1...g%20Charges.pdf John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Sat, 19 May 2007 - 21:51 |
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Sun, 20 May 2007 - 08:56
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
QUOTE (anotherticket @ Sat, 19 May 2007 - 22:50) I have appealed anyway, sent to there email address, i've had a auto response, informing me that they have received it. Care to post the text of your appeal for posterity? QUOTE On the Freedom of info act, should i apply for that now, or wait for the rejection? Is it the TMO/TRO's, I should be asking for? Do it now as it might take a long time to arrive. The TRO's may provide you with further ammunition if what is written down does not match what has been implemented on the street. QUOTE I'm gobsmacked.  That document is nothing but an admission of outright corporate incompetence. The people responsible should be sacked or better, sent to jail. What is more, how come the politicians did not try to cover up this mess? I am left with the following thoughts: - Brent Council have addmited maladministration of their parking department. - This has left them with loss of £1.5 income which at appears the Council was relying on to finance their budget. - How can you run a fair penal system that is expected to make a profit? - The tax/rate payers and motorists are being expected to pay for their mistakes. Unbelievable... -------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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Sun, 20 May 2007 - 18:16
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Box Clever, here's my reply. Sorry not to familiar on the quote system here
 Dear Sir/Madam I am making representations, Re- Penalty Charge Notice, number *********, VRM ********, date of notice 16/05/07at 8.58amI received a pcn, after parking in a bay that i am normally entitled to do, on the road i live on Lechmere Rd this is where I normally park. I have a valid Parking residence permit which is displayed correctly for controlled zone (GC-CPZ). Circumstances leading up to PCN, I parked in this Bay at 11pm at night on the end of the bay, it was a windy rainy dark night. On getting out of my car, i walked in the opposite direction, of the now known suspended bays signage, which was tied to a very large dark overgrown tree,approx 35-40 feet away, there was minimal light to illuminate it's presence, also cars & vans were parked there that night, making viewing nigh on impossible. Even if i did read it, i would have then had to check the houses on the opposite side of the road to see which house's were counted as the start/end of bay suspension, can't normally see house numbers at night. Right beside where i was parked is a the offical permit sign, no suspended sign was attached to this post, which i have subsequently found out is where the majority of bays are suspended. As a resident, there was no notice's posted to let us know bays were to be suspended, also there were no leaflets attached to cars with valid residents permits, forewarning of bay suspension. I do not get out much, would not have known about any bay suspensions taking place, rather annoyed to find myself in this situation, especially galling to know that i pay £50 for the privilege to park on my on street. I feel this PCN is to harsh, & should be quashed. I have plenty of photographic evidence to support my position, & if needs be with fight this all the way.I await your reply. Yours Faithfully That's all i gave them, I have much more to throw at them, if needs be, in someway i wish it does get rejected, just so i can play them at their own game. I'll do a freedom of info, for the TMO's next week. How convenient, that the Gov just tried to exclude themselves from this act! Yet want to know everything about us, including what the view from your kitchen windows looks like. Jeeze Nothing in Brent Council surprises me, charlatan's the lot. John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Sun, 20 May 2007 - 18:19 |
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Mon, 21 May 2007 - 21:56
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Just received this in response to the informal appeal, posted above. How do I deal with this?
Do i give them all the info I have got, by post, or do i hold on to what i have got, worried that if i give them all, they will base their defence or is it prosecution, on the more info i provide. Don't want to hang myself, before getting a chance to have my day in court  Also they don't want me to reply to the personal email address that the individual used to send the email below to me. they want it via post! Thoughts please. John P PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS E-MAIL ADDRESS. Re:PCN********** Thank you for your recent e-mail challenge to this Penalty Charge. Unfortunately, we cannot reply by e-mail and therefore require your postal address so that we can respond. This can be sent to either the appeals e-mail address (brent.appeals@centralparkingsystem.com) or sent via the post to: London Borough of Brent, Control Plus, Admail 454, Wembley, Middlesex, HA9 0SZ. Also, if you have any further evidence which you feel would be relevant to your case we will require you to forward a copy onto us to assist in your challenge. Please provide this information to the above address within 7 days from the date of this letter. Once we receive the requested information, your challenge will be assessed and you will receive a reply letter informing you of the outcome in due course. Please note that if the information is not received within seven days the notice will be allowed to progress. Thank you, Control Plus This post has been edited by anotherticket: Mon, 21 May 2007 - 22:02 |
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Fri, 25 May 2007 - 18:29
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 16 May 2007 Member No.: 12,068 |
Hi all,
Recieved my rejection to my informal representations, which i guessed it would. One section of the lovely 3 page expensive colour headed page that jumps out to me is- "The responsibility, however, for ensuring the vehicle has been correctly parked and in accordance with a possible suspension rests with the driver. It remains the driver's duty to take note of the restrictions or suspensions in force when they choose to park the vehicle and to act accordingly. The motorist should check all adjacent time plates to check that no signs stating that the bay is suspended. Motorists are required to park in line with local regulations at all times" Apart from the bay not being marked properly,(no bay divisions for each car). The bay suspension sign was attached to a tree, & no other official parking signage on my side of the road. Above, it mentions check all adjacent time plates. My argument is a suspension sign tied to a tree is not official parking signage, I have no responsibility to look at trees, for parking suspensions. I'll now wait for the NTO & fight on later, also have done the Freedom of Info do-daa as well, for TRO/TMO's Any thoughts John P This post has been edited by anotherticket: Fri, 25 May 2007 - 19:03 |
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Fri, 25 May 2007 - 19:11
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
QUOTE (anotherticket @ Fri, 25 May 2007 - 19:29) The motorist should check all adjacent time plates to check that no signs stating that the bay is suspended. Hoisted by their own petard m'thinks...  You have a photograph showing the adjacent timeplate relevant to the bay which does not indicate a suspension. -------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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