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Kid fighting the system HELP!
worried mum
post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 13:58
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Hi everone, my son was allegedly caught doing 51 mph in a 30 mile limit, by a cop hiding in the bushes with a hand held gun.
The distance of this road is very short, I can only get the distance from my car speedo and it is well under 1/10th of a mile from where he started from a red stop light to him geting past the cop who was then back in his car pulling out to go after him!
Its a 125cc bike and its pulling around 20 stone of weight.
he was between two other motorbikes with a van directly behind, at the time he didnt know the driver of the van but they found him later to see why he was pulled to see if he wanted a witness.
There was another motorcycle that didnt stop at the lights and had caught up with the others saw the cop then slowed down, if any one was doing that speed it was that bike.
My son went to court and was going to go guilty and take whatever was given especially after finding out it costs almost 70 quid for 15 minutes legal advice and a furter 300 for the court attendance!
He is likely to have been given a ban for that speed on a provisional licence as he didnt think he had any chance of fighting the system, whilst waiting to go in there were two others in the waiting area both being done by the same copper and both fighting thier cases for exactly the same reasons, saying they wernt doing it, also the duty solicitor apparantly told the magistrate that this officer had several complaints against him and they have asked him to go back with witnesses in 2 weeks time.
One of these people has been back to the court 3 times and he said every time there were people there all going not guilty being done by the same copper.
Does any one know of any distance to mph and time travelled calaulations that can be done to help prove this case?
He wasnt given a verbal NIP unless you can count I shall do you for your exhaust as well when I have you in court as the verbal NIP, My son actually came home and said he had been stopped but he thought it wasnt real because of the speed and he wasnt given anything or actually told he was going to court. and after reading the guidleines for the hand held radar it looks like its shouldnt have been used with so many vehicles around. and he certainly shouldnt have been hiding in the bushes.
In this short bit of road he must have done very well to hold that gun on a steady reading for 3 seconds then get back into his car.
Does he really have any chance here? I do understand why he is doing it and no I dont agree that he should no only loose his license but also to be loaded for a long time by insurance companies for something he is not guilty of.
Also the worrying thing is this area where he has been done is the area the cops are clamping down on,its where all the kids gather and you know how cops dont like gatherings, they aint doing any harm, they just stand there chatting.
apparantly they had a big clampdown last night and they were checking all the cars and our papers today are full of all the arrests etc, funny though isnt it my son was there in a friends car and he said they only did one person for a bald tyre! yet they have managed to make the entire front page of our local paper.
I really think that because it was in this area he wont stand a chance and he needs all the help he can get.
any suggestions how to go about this, hes done the not guilty plea now he has got to prove it but HOW?????
I have gathered lots of informtion where it seems the cop didnt follow procedure, and i guess I could represent him in court he wouldnt be able to do it himself, he wouldnt understand how to present my findings and probably wouldnt even understand them, but would it be wise to do that as they may then see it as we have been looking for a reason to cop out rather than just the fact that this bike couldnt do that speed in such a short distance.
My husband has a 500 gamma and he says he would struggle to get to that speed in such a short distance that may give you some idea of the distance I am trying to get accross!

Would appreciate any advice
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post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 13:58
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Alexander-TG
post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 15:59
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Hi Worried Mum,

Its been some time since I did my A level Applied Mathematics icon_wink.gif but it should not be hard to prove the power required to accelerate a mass of 20 stone (280 lbs-127.27kg) to 51 mph over a distance of 528 ft or 162.5 metres. rolleyes.gif

I bet it will take more power than a 125cc motor cycle. I shouldn't think the courts could argue with Newton's Laws of Motion. rolleyes.gif

I will try and dig out the formulas do the calculations and get back to you.

Regards,

Alec
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Blackbird
post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 16:33
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Hi worriedmum
I agree with AlexanderTG - the maths would be easy (plenty of engineers on this site), but perhaps we need to look at the circumstances first. Can the witnesses confirm that your son had stopped at the lights? You can bet the police officer didn't see that - or come to that the other vehicles. Can you confirm that radar was used (anything on the s9?) Good to see that you are doing research, if you can't find anything just ask - somebody on this site will have probably have found it biggrin.gif

Oh - 500 gamma - nice!

AlexanderTG
QUOTE
I shouldn't think the courts could argue with Newton's Laws of Motion.

Actually they did when I defended myself 20 years ago icon_eek.gif . Aparently a Mark 4 Cortina Estate - fully laden could accelerate from 0 - 60+mph in under 60 feet and negotiate a 90 degree bend at the same time.
Or perhaps Newton (and my Maths) wasn't believed because the prosecution was being brought by a friend of the Chief Constable who was also a respected Town Counsellor.

Whoops cynical hat on again!
Best Regards


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worried mum
post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 19:48
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Hi Alec, thanks I think that actual calculations will be the only thing that will help him out with this, the acutal distance though is even far less than the 162 mts, the only way I could calculate that was to drive that stretch of road and by the time my speedo clocked the 1/10th of a mile i was a lot further than where the cop had pulled out from to go after him , this was after he had got out of the bushes and got back in his car!
maybe I will have to go there with a ball of string and get exact metres, but then we have no way of knowing exactly what point this gun was supposed to get that reading which makes it even more unbelivable!


QUOTE (Alexander-TG)
Its been some time since I did my A level Applied Mathematics icon_wink.gif  but it should not be hard to prove the power required to accelerate a mass of 20 stone (280 lbs-127.27kg) to 51 mph over a distance of 528 ft or 162.5 metres. rolleyes.gif  

I bet it will take more power than a 125cc motor cycle. I shouldn't think the courts could argue with Newton's Laws of Motion. rolleyes.gif  

I will try and dig out the formulas  do the calculations and get back to you.

Regards,

Alec
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worried mum
post Sat, 1 May 2004 - 19:55
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Hi Blackbird, yes the witness both will confirm they were stopped at the lights, and that he was sandwiched between other vehicles and was not the vehicle that would have been in the straight line from where he was hiding in the bushes with the gun! whats the S9???? ( sorry new to this lol) im not blonde but going a whiter shade of grey every day now!
he had a radar gun thrust at him showing 51 on it, he wasnt even 100% sure that it wasnt some sort of scare tatic and didnt beleve it was real until he got the summons land at the door.
I was hoping that some sort of mathmatical evidence would help him but your own personal experience sounds almost as crazy as his!

QUOTE (Blackbird)
but perhaps we need to look at the circumstances first.  Can the witnesses confirm that your son had stopped at the lights?  You can bet the police officer didn't see that - or come to that the other vehicles.  Can you confirm that radar was used (anything on the s9?)  Good to see that you are doing research, if you can't find anything just ask - somebody on this site will have probably have found it biggrin.gif  

Oh - 500 gamma - nice!

AlexanderTG
QUOTE
I shouldn't think the courts could argue with Newton's Laws of Motion.

Actually they did when I defended myself 20 years ago icon_eek.gif . Aparently a Mark 4 Cortina Estate - fully laden could accelerate from 0 - 60+mph in under 60 feet and negotiate a 90 degree bend at the same time.
Or perhaps Newton (and my Maths) wasn't believed because the prosecution was being brought by a friend of the Chief Constable who was also a respected Town Counsellor.

Whoops cynical hat on again!
Best Regards
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Blackbird
post Sun, 2 May 2004 - 07:27
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morning worriedmum

Good news about the witnesses, IMO that will give your son the most help (backed up by some maths). The courts will always believe one policeman against one defendant - but with witnesses that is a completely different matter. The s9 that I referred to is the formal statement that should have been sent to your son with the summons stating the Police Officers 'view' of the events. This document will probably suggest the best way to ‘attack’ the problem. Any chance that you can post the details (just don’t ‘identify’ fully the case).
Perhaps a ‘formal statement’ to give to the court would be the best way forward in order to refute the s9.
Please let us know any more details that you can of the prosecution case - then we will see the best way forwards.

Best Regards


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Alexander-TG
post Sun, 2 May 2004 - 12:06
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Hi Worried Mum,

I did some quick calculations but I need some more information.

Can you tell me the power rating of the motor bike that is the horse power of the machine. I also need the total weight including the motor bike. Was the road flat or was there a slope up hill or down.

My calculation so far prove that the machine with your son on it took just 14 seconds to pass the policeman if he reahed 51 mph at that point.

If the distance is shorter as you say then the time would be less and the power of the motor bike would have to be larger.

If you can give me these figures I will post the results.

My son was once accused of dangerous driving on the M1. He was stopped in Watford and arrested. The alledged offence occured 60 miles away. I proved from the statements of the police in Hertfordshire and the police in Bedford that he could not have been there at the time stated and produced calculations showing that he would have to had travelled at 170 mph to get to the place where he was stopped. Result charge dropped and big claim for false arrest.(He spent night in police cell)

If you can prove that it was physically impossible to achieve the speed stated then you have a good case.

Regards,

Alec
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worried mum
post Mon, 3 May 2004 - 15:04
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hI Blackbrid he had the form that had to be returned as to how he was going to plea, no idea what that form ws and he got a statement of facts form smc16A nothing else, this states "
at........ at 10.25pm the defendant was driving a motorcycle on a road, the speed of the vehicle was checked and found to be 51 miles per hour.
the road is restricted to a speed limit of 30 miles per hour the vehicle involved was a yamaha DT 125 reg no ......... there will be a minimum claim of £35 costs
I really appreciate all your help guys
QUOTE (Blackbird)
The s9 that I referred to is the formal statement that should have been sent to your son with the summons stating the Police Officers 'view' of the events.  This document will probably suggest the best way to ‘attack’ the problem.  Any chance that you can post the details (just don’t ‘identify’ fully the case).  

Best Regards
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worried mum
post Mon, 3 May 2004 - 15:16
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Hi Alec, I am very grateful for your help!

I am trying to find out the further info for you, and will post as soon as i have the info ( cant beleive i just got my boy to get on the scales lol)
[quote="Alexander-TG"]I did some quick calculations but I need some more information.
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Blackbird
post Mon, 3 May 2004 - 15:59
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AlexanderTG
For information for your calcs
DT125 's make 12bhp (tuneable to about 17!) standard gearing gives a max top speed of 62mph - but not with 20 stone!
Estimated weight (dry 147kg)

Best Regards


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Alexander-TG
post Mon, 3 May 2004 - 16:21
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Thanks Blackbird,

My calculator is poised and ready to go. biggrin.gif

I trust Mr Newton's laws will come through. rolleyes.gif

Total weight (Mass) of 603.4 lbs accelerating at 5.326 ft/sec/sec up to a terminal velocity of 75 ft/sec all within a distance of 528 ft (maximum) in 14 seconds. Ummm Interesting. icon_eek.gif

Regards

Alec
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Blackbird
post Mon, 3 May 2004 - 16:59
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My pleasure Alex

worriedmum
If this is all the info that the police sent, hardly expansive is it! Not unusual though.
QUOTE
at........ at 10.25pm the defendant was driving a motorcycle on a road, the speed of the vehicle was checked and found to be 51 miles per hour.  
the road is restricted to a speed limit of 30 miles per hour the vehicle involved was a yamaha DT 125 reg no


I note no mention of the traffic lights, other traffic etc...... witness statements should prove invaluable.

If I understand your posts correctly, your son has formally pleaded not guilty so your son may recieve further formal statements - the case against your son - when the date for the hearing is set. Lets see what they contain - if anything when that stage is reached.

Best Regards


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worried mum
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 08:02
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Hi Alec, I am still waiting on the exact measurement of the road, my husband should be able to get exact meterage measurements from the works computer if he can manage to get into it to get the info from it lol, he brought one home last night and the password had been changed.
I dont know if this is any help but yesterday I drove that stretch of road at a steady 30 it took exactly 10 seconds from starting the stop watch at the traffic lights where my son started from on the red light to the point where the cop was pulling out to give chase.
That of course has no bearing as to the point where the gun was supposed to have clocked him, but he had to have time to get from the bushes back into his car that surely must have took 3 to 4 seconds!

The techicnal info I have at the moment is BHP of bike 12.2
total unladen weight of bike 119 Kilos these have come direct from the workshop manual, we dont have any reason to think that there are any engine modifications on the bike.
weight of rider 280 lbs ( 20 stone) cant beleive my estimate was exact lol! i havent got him any where near the scales for years.
the road is totally flat but its almost like an oval race track with very sharp bends and no one would be negotiating that bend at 51 mph, i dont actually think you would be negotiating that at 30, so he would have slowed down long before he got to the point where he was level with the cop pulling out as he was pulling out of a slip road thats on the bend.

Ill post the exact meterage as soon as I have obtained it.
thanks again for your help.

QUOTE (Alexander-TG)
My calculator is poised and ready to go. biggrin.gif  

I trust Mr Newton's laws will come through. rolleyes.gif  

Total weight (Mass) of 603.4 lbs accelerating at 5.326 ft/sec/sec up to a terminal velocity of 75 ft/sec all within a distance of 528 ft (maximum)  in 14 seconds.  Ummm Interesting. icon_eek.gif  

Regards

Alec
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worried mum
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 08:34
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Hi Blackbird, he attended court last Friday pleased not guilty and was asked if he could supply witnesses, its adjourned until Friday next week(14th May)
The other guy that was at the court contesting a speeding offence from the same copper had got a copy of the cops statement, lol for what its worth it basically said "I pressed the button on my gun and got the reading of"
do we need to request the statement from the court.

QUOTE (Blackbird)
I note no mention of the traffic lights, other traffic etc...... witness statements should prove invaluable.  

If I understand your posts correctly, your son has formally pleaded not guilty so your son may recieve further formal statements - the case against your son - when the date for the hearing is set.  Lets see what they contain - if anything when that stage is reached.

Best Regards
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Blackbird
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 10:09
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hello again worriedmum

On the subject of the statements (s9) that should be supplied.
You said that they form that your son has says smc16A - this is probably the form number. The form should be headed something like 'Witness Statement' Try looking for a sentence along the lines of 'CJ Act 1967, s.9: MC Act 1980 .....' If this is present it is the 'evidence'.
If the document you have is a s9 the wording of this document is very important. It must include a sentence along the lines of 'I formed the opinion that the vehicle was exceeding the ..mph limit .....'
Your previous posts suggest that this is not the case.
Could you please fully post the exact wording - avoiding identifying your son - then we can see exactly where to go.

Best Regards


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worried mum
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 16:11
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Hi Blackbird, the SMC 16A says statement of facts magistrates courts acts, 1980's 12 (3)(B)

QUOTE
On the subject of the statements (s9) that should be supplied.
You said that they form that your son has says smc16A - this is probably the form number.  The form should be headed something like 'Witness Statement'  Try looking for a sentence along the lines of 'CJ Act 1967, s.9: MC Act 1980 .....'  If this is present it is the 'evidence'.


QUOTE
If the document you have is a s9 the wording of this document is very important.  It must include a sentence along the lines of 'I formed the opinion that the vehicle was exceeding the ..mph limit .....'
Your previous posts suggest that this is not the case.
Could you please fully post the exact wording - avoiding identifying your son - then we can see exactly where to go.


The form has his name and address,
court address
if you inform the clerk of the court that you wish to plead guilty to the offences(s) of
EXCEED 30MPH ON RESTRICTED ROAD

Then it has a section about the statement will be read out in court in your absence and the statement of facts that I posted fully in my earlier post!
he also had the summons, this summons states :
you drove a motor cycle on a restricted road exceeding 30 miles per hour.
contrary to sections 81(1) and 89(1) of the road traffic regulation act 1984 and schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders act 1988
These dont mean a thing to me!
And another form that had to be returned to the court telling them if you were appearing and what plea you wished to enter I dont have any idea what else was on that form, that was returned before the hearing.

Should we be asking for a S9 to be supplied by the court?
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Alexander-TG
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 17:42
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Hi worried mum,

The distance is very critical and if it was only 440 ft. (30mph for 10 seconds) it makes a lot of difference.

I will get back to you.

Regards

Alec
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Blackbird
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 19:20
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Hi worriedmum
Sorry but I am getting a little confused now icon_eek.gif
The documents that you have listed are to the best of my knowledge not the one that I was looking for.
A s9 statement would be headed 'Witness Statement' and be the statement of the police officer so it would have his name and rank on it.
So I have to presume that the only document being tendered in evidence will be the one that states

QUOTE
at........ at 10.25pm the defendant was driving a motorcycle on a road, the speed of the vehicle was checked and found to be 51 miles per hour.  
the road is restricted to a speed limit of 30 miles per hour the vehicle involved was a yamaha DT 125 reg no ......... there will be a minimum claim of £35 costs


Sorry to have to ask more questions, but the hearing in 1.5 weeks time, is it the full hearing or what is termed a pre-trial review? This again is important - I would suggest that a phone call to the court is necessary to check (remember to take a name or if they won't give it to you their staff number).
The reason that I am banging on about this is that the statement above is not adequate - it misses crucial words. If the next hearing is a PTR then there is still time for the CPS to get the appropriately worded statement from the police officer but if not .... well lets cross the bridge when we get to it.

Best Regards


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worried mum
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 19:51
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Hi Alec,
Give me until tomorrow and I should be able to get the exact measurement in mts from the councils plan of the road, my hubby just has to get into the works laptop to get this measurement,
I only drove that bit of road with the stop watch as a rough guide all I could tell before that from the speedo is that it was well under the 1/10th of a mile. doing it this way there was still room for error telling my son start it now and stop it now!
Hubby works on 24 hour call out and with the weather we have had here today I very much doubt I will see him tonight so it will probably be tomorrow before I get the exact measurement.
QUOTE
The distance is very critical and if it was only 440 ft. (30mph for 10 seconds) it makes a lot of difference.  
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worried mum
post Wed, 5 May 2004 - 20:00
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Hi Blackbird, I have no idea as to what this hearing is only that hes been asked to take his witnesses to court with him, hope this isnt a pre-trial preview lol I dont want to go through this for much longer and I am sure the witnesses wont be too happy about having to take another day off work!
He came out of court last friday saying its been adjouned till the 14th because he went not guilty, sorry thats all I know
If I phone the court to ask which hearing it is on friday do I ask them to supply the s9?
QUOTE
 
Sorry to have to ask more questions, but the hearing in 1.5 weeks time, is it the full hearing or what is termed a pre-trial review?  This again is important - I would suggest that a phone call to the court is necessary to check (remember to take a name or if they won't give it to you their staff number).
The reason that I am banging on about this is that the statement above is not adequate - it misses crucial words.  If the next hearing is a PTR then there is still time for the CPS to get the appropriately  worded statement from the police officer but if not ....  well lets cross the bridge when we get to it.

Best Regards
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