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General advice for speeding and S172 (please)
Russ
post Sun, 18 Apr 2004 - 20:48
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Hi,

I have my court date the week after next for S172 and speeding. I was thinking of telephoning and 'plea bargaining' with the CPS to take the speeding if they drop the S172. I can't really see why they would do this though after Idris (except to save the public's money).

So, what is the general best practice advice for this scenario? I would presume that a guilty plea for the S172 and not guilty for the speeding is the best approach. Can they still get you for speeding though by asking if you were the driver at the time, when you are on the stand?

Russ.
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post Sun, 18 Apr 2004 - 20:48
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Rosewell
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 07:15
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How fast were you going?
Have you had your pre trial review yet?
Is all the paperwork sent to you correct in particular S9's?
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cas
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 08:17
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I believe that a person cannot be convicted of both as this would be farcical, can anyone confirm this? And does anyone know of cases where people have been convicted of both?

What could one say in court in the event of the CPS/magistrates attempting to convict a defendant of both?
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cjm99
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 08:22
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Russ

QUOTE
Can they still get you for speeding though by asking if you were the driver at the time, when you are on the stand?


If they insist on proceding on both counts, then you must insist that they are heard in chronological order. IE. speeding first. Do not take the stand. quote law from the floor of the court, No case to answer. Or if they go for a 'voluntary confession' assuming you are not Yorke compliant then do not offer any defence evidence on this charge.

To proove speeding without a signed NIP compliant with sec12 RTOA, they would have to use Mawdesley "voluntary confession". If they did this, and it is really very unlikely, then it would be perverse to say the least, to then go on to say that a voluntary confession of speeding, which has just been sufficient to prove guilt of speeding, fails to identify the driver at the time of the offence. These two assertions are mutually exclusive


Chris

PS only bargain to accept speeding and drop s172 (it's cheaper)


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Russ
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 09:59
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Thanks for the responses...
To answer your questions: I was doing 89 on a 70 dual carriageway (Sunday afternoon/evening... no traffic).

No pre-trial review but this case has been ongoing for a long time now. I kept on asking them whether I had to attend the many hearings that have been set for me because I live about 120 miles from the court.

On each occasion, I was told that I didn't need to attend but after the last one, they convicted me (of S172 offence only) in my absence (3 points and £360 in costs and fines). Anyway, to cut a long story short, I complained and got the case re-opened (before Idris).

I was particulary annoyed about this because they kept on trying to get me to plead guilty by adjourning the hearings because '...plea will now be guilty' when I had pleaded not guilty all along. So, they convicted me in my absence when I had confirmed with them, in writing, that I didn't need to attend.

Abuse of process? I have asked them twice now to send me the details of where and who I send an official complaint to but they ignore these requests.

Russ.
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cjm99
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 10:09
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QUOTE
I have asked them twice now to send me the details of where and who I send an official complaint to


Lord Goldsmith, the Attorney General

Chris


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Rosewell
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 10:10
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Sorry have I missed something here?
Do not take the stand? From the floor of the court? [This isn't Perry Mason] You have to politely ask to stand at the front with the avocates otherwise you are one row back with no desk.
They will not allow you to give evidence unless you are in the witness box. If you do not take the oath and to the witness box you can not give evidence, then from your silence an inference will be taken ie you will be found guilty. Why not take the 'stand' there is nothing to fear. Take your time relax and present, you may refer to notes to refresh your memory. You are on eye level with the Justices and above the CPS so you can look down on them.
BUT Try refusing and see what occurs. i said at my trial that if I was represented but not present my solicitor would not have to take to the witness box and the reply was that if I wanted to present my case I would have to give evidence thus take the oath in the 'box. After Presenting and a short coss examination by the CPS I then left the 'box went back to the front of the court and summerised and concluded the defence.

I had to defend against both speeding and S172 one after the other They always hear them in date order.

The general feeling of the court is that as a trial is importaint [it is if you want to plead not guilty and get the charge dismissed] an appearence is essential. Otherwise the court feel that you either do not feel strongly about the matter or you are not taking them seriously. Be there or be square [read guilty]
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cjm99
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 10:21
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You are quite right.

But. To present evidence or give evidence you are just as constrained as the CPS. You can with appropriate disclosure, examine a defence witness. Or again with appropraite disclosure and agreement, read a s9 witness statement. Or be sworn and give personal evidence, and of course then be cross-examined.
If your defence is purely points of law, as regards the evidence already presented, then this can be done from the floor of the court.

Chris


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Rosewell
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 15:12
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Yes, cjm99 [is that your age? laugh.gif ] you are right. But it will take a lot of front to stand up to the request and refuse to take the stand and argue your case entirely on points of law. The norm would be take the stand take the oath and conduct the case be cross examined leave box and conduct the points of law and anything else from the floor. The norm also is that the witnessess are not present because the S9's have not been objected to [that is if you have any sense; as you can now rip into any discrepancies within the statements, without the witnessess correcting themselves as they are not there.] The object is not to blurt too early or all may be lost!!

Kind Regards,
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dave99
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 16:29
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Why am I getting the privilege of having live witnesses at my trial then when I have S9s that were not objected to? My trial was adjourned because the witness could not attend (as far as I can tell, the witness is the police officer operating the camera - but the CPS havent actually told me that officially). Do prosecution witnesses add to the court costs at all?

Re. taking the stand - lets say I go in the box and the prosecution asks "were you driving the said vehicle at such and such a time on road x?", my only answer is yes. Now I know that isnt an admission of the offence, but would the magistrates take much notice of what you have to say after that???
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cjm99
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 18:09
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QUOTE
(as far as I can tell, the witness is the police officer operating the camera - but the CPS havent actually told me that officially). Do prosecution witnesses add to the court costs at all?


I think that a witness list has to be disclosed just as any other evidence.
Either side can require the witness to attend even after s9 statements have been disclosed. Yes the witness's do add costs.

Chris


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Blackbird
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 18:18
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dave99 said
QUOTE
Why am I getting the privilege of having live witnesses at my trial then when I have S9s that were not objected to?
chris said
QUOTE
I think that a witness list has to be disclosed just as any other evidence.
Either side can require the witness to attend even after s9 statements have been disclosed. Yes the witness's do add costs.


At my PTR the CPS said 'You will be calling Sgt.. and Miss...' Oh this is getting very expensive for you.
I objected saying that I was not calling either witness and had no requirement for them to attend. The CPS eventually gave way on the film reader - but insisted on the Sgt. I objected again and the CPS continued to say how much this was costing me.
To this day I do not know who will be attending. rolleyes.gif and have no official notification.

Best Regards


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Rosewell
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 19:18
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Just a sec' These are not your witnesses why are you calling them? At my PTR the clerk asked me if I objected to the S9's and if I wanted any witnesses called. I replied that I did not object to the S9's [that does not mean you agree with them only that you do not object to the content being read out in court] and as they were prosecution witnesses, if the prosecution wanted to call them so be it; but I did not want to call them.

I do not think you have told us all that has occurred with your case yet, as suddenly a number of appearences have gone by/been missed?
Regards,
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davleigh
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 20:34
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'plea bargaining' with the CPS to take the speeding if they drop the S172.

Russ - ask if the CPS will drop the speeding charge if you plead guilty to the speeding. Reason: failure to supply can only be punished with 3 points - speeding 3 to 6 !
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Russ
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 22:09
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Davleigh,

I presume you meant plead guilty to the S172? smile.gif

I believe that they are unlikely to hand out more than 3 points for the speed that I was doing. And a S172 offence can really hammer your insurance premiums from what I have read on other threads. icon_cry.gif

So I would rather just accept the speeding if they would be willing to bargain.

Russ.
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Rosewell
post Mon, 19 Apr 2004 - 22:33
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Daveliegh, Do not forget that S172 is viewed by [most] insurance companies as worse than a speeding conviction [unless it was a really high speed nicking] then it might be better for the lesser points higher insurance tactic.
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