3 speeding tickets, each 1 minute apart Options

[Rio114]

SORRY, I WASN'T AWARE OF THIS SITE BEFORE REPLYING TO THE NIP AND SO HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT, AND NOW HAVE 3 OFFERS OF FIXED PENALTIES. SO I COULDN'T USE THE NIP WIZARD BEFORE POSTING.

I have received 3 fixed penalty notices, each for offences 1 minute apart (so 22.41, 22.42 and 22.43) on the same road (though they are treating it as separate sections divided by roundabouts). It was a 30mph zone and I was going at 36, 37 and 42 mph.

I'm not sure whether to just accept the 3 fixed penalty notices and take 9 points or to go to court. I'm not disputing the offences though, so would that mean I'd have to appear in person? My argument is that they should be treated as one offence.

Would I have to go to court in person? or could I make written submissions? If I do go to court/make submissions and they are rejected, could I end up with a higher fine that the 3 x £100 fixed penalty notices? And more points than 9, ie resulting in a ban? (My licence has no points at present, but I have recently done a speed awareness course and so that isn't an option this time around).

At the moment I'm leaning towards accepting the FPNs but was recommended to raise this here.

Any thoughts/advice much appreciated

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[Jlc]

My argument is that they should be treated as one offence.

The court could consider them being committed 'on the same occasion' and impose one set of points. Alternatively, you could argue it was a single continuous offence but the court will consider the facts and decide accordingly.

If it was a straight road where you had simply maintained a speed in excess and where caught twice in quick succession that argument has more weight than a section where you were having to slow down and then speed up again (those speeds are unlikely to be maintainable around roundabouts*).

*without bringing the manner of your driving into question

Would I have to go to court in person? or could I make written submissions? If I do go to court/make submissions and they are rejected, could I end up with a higher fine that the 3 x £100 fixed penalty notices? And more points than 9, ie resulting in a ban? (My licence has no points at present, but I have recently done a speed awareness course and so that isn't an option this time around).

Realistically you'd been best advised go to a hearing. Trying such angles via written submissions won't be easy - they may not issue a SJPN for all of the offences for starters.

Going to court can incur more cost. You are subject to income-related fines (around 66-100% of your relevant weekly income, potentially for each offence), surcharges (40% of the fines) and costs (around £90 for guilty plea). One of the offences would likely be 4 points too. (The others are in the 3 point band)

Depends on whether attempting to reduce the total points is priority.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 - 12:36

[southpaw82]

If it was a straight road where you had simply maintained a speed in excess and where caught twice in quick succession that argument has more weight than a section where you were having to slow down and then speed up again (those speeds are unlikely to be maintainable around roundabouts*).

I agree in respect of whether it was a single continuing offence (or not), which is what I’m sure you meant. As regards whether the offences were committed on the same occasion (the statutory test) I don’t think that is particularly relevant.

[Jlc]

I agree in respect of whether it was a single continuing offence (or not), which is what I’m sure you meant.

Indeed, apologies if that was unclear.

As regards whether the offences were committed on the same occasion (the statutory test) I don’t think that is particularly relevant.

Indeed.

[NewJudge]

SORRY, I WASN'T AWARE OF THIS SITE BEFORE REPLYING TO THE NIP AND SO HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT, AND NOW HAVE 3 OFFERS OF FIXED PENALTIES. SO I COULDN'T USE THE NIP WIZARD BEFORE POSTING.

Just to clarify, you did not respond to the NIPs. You responded to the accompanying "Requests for Driver's Details". You had no option but to do this regardless of any issues you might have with the speeding offences. Failure to do so would mean you commit a more serious offence which, on conviction, carries six points. So no damage done.

The NIPs are simply notices which need no response.

[Rio114]

Thank you both. That makes sense - that they aren't likely to see it as a single continuous offence if the stretches of road are separated by roundabouts, even though the timings are only a minute apart. As I must have slowed down and sped up, as you say.

I'm not sure what the argument is regarding whether it's on the same occasion. Is that a separate argument to it being a single continuous offence? In any event, it sounds like you think that isn't relevant.

Given that one of the 3 offences was 42 in a 30 mph zone and therefore the risk is for more than 3 points being awarded for that offence, then I wonder whether I'd be better off just taking the 3 x fixed penalty notices and sucking up the 9 points.

Thanks again

SORRY, I WASN'T AWARE OF THIS SITE BEFORE REPLYING TO THE NIP AND SO HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT, AND NOW HAVE 3 OFFERS OF FIXED PENALTIES. SO I COULDN'T USE THE NIP WIZARD BEFORE POSTING.

Just to clarify, you did not respond to the NIPs. You responded to the accompanying "Requests for Driver's Details". You had no option but to do this regardless of any issues you might have with the speeding offences. Failure to do so would mean you commit a more serious offence which, on conviction, carries six points. So no damage done.

The NIPs are simply notices which need no response.

Ah ok. My partner (who is the registered vehicle owner) responded to the original Request for Driver's Details, replying that it was me driving. Then I received a Notice of Intention to Prosecute in the same doc as the Application for the Identity of the Driver. Which as you say is the element that I then replied to.

And now I have 3 x Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty.

So it sounds like there may be a chance that a court would treat it as one offence but there is also a risk that the offence of 42mph might result in higher fine/points (taking me over 9 points) - hence me wondering whether I should just accept the fixed penalties.

This post has been edited by Rio114: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 - 14:35

[innocentdevil]

whereabouts was that, looks like road has swarm of speed cameras very near to one another.

[NewJudge]

There is a difference between the court considering you committed one continuous offence and that you committed three offences "on the same occasion".

In the first, they must find that your excess speed continued over a stretch, but happened to be measured at three different points in that stretch. That seems unlikely from your description (as you slowed down for the roundabouts and then sped up again).

The second is more a matter of interpretation of the law. The Road Traffic Offenders' Act says this:

"Where a person is convicted...of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them..."

In a simple example, if you were stopped for speeding but also had no insurance, the two individual offences would attract a minimum of three for speeding and six for the No Insurance. But because of the above section, you would not see nine imposed, but only six (the highest of the two) as the offences were committed "on the same occasion."

The same principle might be applied to your three offences but it would be for a court to decide if that was appropriate.

[Jlc]

Of course, it you have 3 CoFP's in your hand there's nothing stopping you calling the Camera Unit and asking them if they'd consider dropping some of them given the locality and time between 'offences'.

They may say, no - only a court can decide that... But nothing ventured...

[Rio114]

whereabouts was that, looks like road has swarm of speed cameras very near to one another.

It was on the A379 out of Plymouth.

1) Billacombe Roundabout to Saltram Meadow Roundabout (at 22.41)
2) Saltram Meadow Roundabout to Elburton Road Roundabout (at 22.42)
3) Elburton Road East (at 22.43)

There is a difference between the court considering you committed one continuous offence and that you committed three offences "on the same occasion".

In the first, they must find that your excess speed continued over a stretch, but happened to be measured at three different points in that stretch. That seems unlikely from your description (as you slowed down for the roundabouts and then sped up again).

The second is more a matter of interpretation of the law. The Road Traffic Offenders' Act says this:

"Where a person is convicted...of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them..."

In a simple example, if you were stopped for speeding but also had no insurance, the two individual offences would attract a minimum of three for speeding and six for the No Insurance. But because of the above section, you would not see nine imposed, but only six (the highest of the two) as the offences were committed "on the same occasion."

The same principle might be applied to your three offences but it would be for a court to decide if that was appropriate.

Thanks for the explanation. So it could be that the court treat it as "on the same occasion" (which is what I was hoping) but they might not, and then I'd be in an even worse position as they might give me 4 points for one of the 3 offences (taking me over 9 for all 3)

Of course, it you have 3 CoFP's in your hand there's nothing stopping you calling the Camera Unit and asking them if they'd consider dropping some of them given the locality and time between 'offences'.

They may say, no - only a court can decide that... But nothing ventured...

Yes, I did think that. I was going to call the Devon and Cornwall Road Safety team tomorrow, but I'm not optimistic!

Realistically you'd been best advised go to a hearing. Trying such angles via written submissions won't be easy - they may not issue a SJPN for all of the offences for starters.

Going to court can incur more cost. You are subject to income-related fines (around 66-100% of your relevant weekly income, potentially for each offence), surcharges (40% of the fines) and costs (around £90 for guilty plea). One of the offences would likely be 4 points too. (The others are in the 3 point band)

Depends on whether attempting to reduce the total points is priority.

Ah so if they aren't considered at the same time (is that what you mean by a SJPN?) then it would be hard to argue that it was on the same occasion

This post has been edited by Rio114: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 - 15:24

[douglasb]

So long as you haven't done a speed awareness course in the last three years you should be offered a course for one and fixed penalties for the others. (2 x 3 points and £100 plus about £90 for the course). Note that the course should be completed within 4 months of the offence.

Higher penalties only apply if you go to court and lose - when the fines are income related, the 42mph one could get 4 points and you would be liable for court costs as well.

If you call them and ask for two of the offences to be treated as a single offence you might come away with a course and a fixed penalty, but realistically you are looking at a course and 2 fixed penalties and not 9 or more points so long as you don't take this to court.

[Jlc]

So long as you haven't done a speed awareness course in the last three years...

...but I have recently done a speed awareness course and so that isn't an option this time around).

...is that what you mean by a SJPN?

When you are prosecuted they will have the charges - the SJPN is a postal process (Single Justice Procedure Notice) where you cannot attend.

They may send 3xSJPN (for each charge) or 1xSJPN (with 3 charges).

You can opt for a hearing and ask for all the charges to be considered at the same time.

[Rio114]

So long as you haven't done a speed awareness course in the last three years you should be offered a course for one and fixed penalties for the others. (2 x 3 points and £100 plus about £90 for the course). Note that the course should be completed within 4 months of the offence.

Higher penalties only apply if you go to court and lose - when the fines are income related, the 42mph one could get 4 points and you would be liable for court costs as well.

If you call them and ask for two of the offences to be treated as a single offence you might come away with a course and a fixed penalty, but realistically you are looking at a course and 2 fixed penalties and not 9 or more points so long as you don't take this to court.

I have done a Speed Awareness course in the last 3 years.

So it's 3 fixed penalities and 9 points. OR take it to court and hope they treat it as one, but could end up with 4 points for the 42mph one, which combined with the 2 other offences would take me over 9 points. Seems like a risk, much as I don't want to take the 3 fixed penalties and 9 points - it seems sensible. But I will ring the police tomorrow.

...is that what you mean by a SJPN?

When you are prosecuted they will have the charges - the SJPN is a postal process (Single Justice Procedure Notice) where you cannot attend.

They may send 3xSJPN (for each charge) or 1xSJPN (with 3 charges).

You can opt for a hearing and ask for all the charges to be considered at the same time.

Ah ok, thank you. So they can issue it as either 1 or 3 separate SJPNs but even if it was issued as 3 separate ones, I could ask to attend and it all be to considered at one hearing. Just seems too risky really.

This post has been edited by Rio114: Wed, 20 Sep 2023 - 18:02

[Jlc]

It was on the A379 out of Plymouth.

1) Billacombe Roundabout to Saltram Meadow Roundabout (at 22.41)
2) Saltram Meadow Roundabout to Elburton Road Roundabout (at 22.42)
3) Elburton Road East (at 22.43)

Looks like series of SPECS cameras, e.g. here.

The roundabouts aren't that 'round' so maintaining a constant speed seems quite possible. They may have clocked between successive pairs of cameras. They are average speed so your peak speed may have been higher though...

[southpaw82]

Three detections in the space of two minutes certainly has the makings of “on the same occasion” to me. You would get the points for the most serious offence, so do you want to gamble the certainty of 9 points (3 x COFP) vs the (pretty good) chance of 3 or 4 points?

[roythebus]

All of which seems to prove that speed awareness courses don't work (I speak from personal experience). But that's another discussion.

[Rio114]

Three detections in the space of two minutes certainly has the makings of “on the same occasion” to me. You would get the points for the most serious offence, so do you want to gamble the certainty of 9 points (3 x COFP) vs the (pretty good) chance of 3 or 4 points?

I think I'll ring the police tomorrow in the first instance and then decide.

I guess that if I go for it, it's the pretty good chance of 3 or 4 points OR risk that it could be even more?!

All of which seems to prove that speed awareness courses don't work (I speak from personal experience). But that's another discussion.

Yes. Although I can tell you that a speed awareness course followed soon after by 3 x speeding offences in the space of 3 minutes works as I've been sticking religiously to the speed limit since!

[thisisntme]

I don't see much benefit of being on 9 points versus 10 points. In either case you would be one offence away from totting, so I don't see much risk points wise for taking it to court. Fines could be a different matter

[Rio114]

I don't see much benefit of being on 9 points versus 10 points. In either case you would be one offence away from totting, so I don't see much risk points wise for taking it to court. Fines could be a different matter

Yes, I realised that last night. I was thinking it was anything over 9 that resulted in a ban, but of course it's not is it. Is there any risk that they could issue more than 4 points for the offence where I was going 42 in the 30 mph zone? I think I saw somewhere that it was 4-6 or maybe I'm getting confused

[NewJudge]

The guidance does indeed say 4-6. but that covers speeds between 41 and 50mph, so 4 points is overwhelmingly likely.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 - 10:01