PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Received FPN late (and accused of jumping a red light when it was amber), And dashcam evidence to avoid court?
thefuture
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 20:56
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 5 Aug 2020
Member No.: 109,328



I was accused of ‘jumping a red light’ by Met local police units in London. It was actually yellow, luckily I had my dashcam on. The police at the time refused to look at it, but I was adamant I didn’t.

Here's the dashcam footage (unlisted YouTube video)
https://youtu.be/cBF9RZPczzo

Besides the point, the Fixed Penalty letter finally came through more than 3 weeks late. Well past the 14 days cut off?

Here it is
Attached Image

Edit: Just realised that photo quality is horrific! Had to compress it so it uploads. Here’s a clear version!������
https://ibb.co/wspf4qB

Date of alleged offence: 19/09/21
Date on letter: 04/10/21
Date it arrived: 06 or 07/10/21

Does this:
1 - mean it’s invalid?
2 - if so, what do I have to do now?
3 - if not, can I show them my footage without having to go to court as it’s so clear and obvious I didn’t?
4 - can I sue them etc for false allegations?

I already have made a DSAR to get the body cam footage in the event I do.



This post has been edited by thefuture: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 - 13:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
8 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 20:56
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 21:08
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37,346
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Going through during amber is potentially an offence too. Amber means stop. However, you may treat the light as green if you were so close to the stop line that you could not stop before red.

The 14 days doesn't apply to a CoFP…. (You were stopped at the time, you are thinking about postal notifications)

Either accept the offer to dispose of the matter without going to court or take the matter to court. You need to make sure you have a defence though.

Can you post the footage?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 22:15


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 21:28
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 49,993
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



If you are not warned at the time of an offence you must be notified within 14 days.

You were warned a the time it seems, no notification needed

What you have is almost certainly not an FPN.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
666
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 21:34
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,126
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



As above, "the amber signal shall, when shown alone, convey the same prohibition as the red signal, except that, as respects any vehicle which is so close to the stop line that it cannot safely be stopped without proceeding beyond the stop line"

Your dashcam footage may simply prove your guilt ...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWMB2
post Thu, 7 Oct 2021 - 21:38
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 9 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,205



In light of the questions above, it might be worth posting your dashcam footage here (via YouTube or similar) - to give you an idea of whether or not it might help or hinder you.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 00:42
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



The front of your vehicle might have gone over the line on amber, but if the light changed and was red by the time the rear of your vehicle crossed, then you are guilty, as well as if the officer considers you could have stopped safely on the amber.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BluntyMcCrow2
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 05:31
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 102
Joined: 21 Jul 2021
Member No.: 113,431



If it’s the ATS I’m thinking of then it has an advanced stop line…..don’t think the footage will do you any favours.
If it is those light then it’s a major junction, where potentially danger may have been caused.

“Can you sue them for false allegations” - what would be the basis of your claim? The officer has a genuine honest held belief you committed the offence, and will give evidence to support their position.

Post the footage up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 07:26
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 567
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 01:42) *
The front of your vehicle might have gone over the line on amber, but if the light changed and was red by the time the rear of your vehicle crossed, then you are guilty, as well as if the officer considers you could have stopped safely on the amber.

That is just made up nonsense.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:06
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 49,993
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:26) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 01:42) *
The front of your vehicle might have gone over the line on amber, but if the light changed and was red by the time the rear of your vehicle crossed, then you are guilty, as well as if the officer considers you could have stopped safely on the amber.

That is just made up nonsense.

No it's not. (All be it the defendant may be able to show on balance that it wasn't indeed safe to stop).
The offence is committed if any part of the car crosses the stop line after the lights are red, even if its just the back bumper (though a court may consider that de minimis by itself, that wouldn't preclude being found guilty due to not stopping for the amber anyway depending on circumstances) - it's well established case law.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:13


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BluntyMcCrow2
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:30
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 102
Joined: 21 Jul 2021
Member No.: 113,431



QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:26) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 01:42) *
The front of your vehicle might have gone over the line on amber, but if the light changed and was red by the time the rear of your vehicle crossed, then you are guilty, as well as if the officer considers you could have stopped safely on the amber.

That is just made up nonsense.


Let us know what legal basis (case law etc) you believe this to be “made up nonsense” or just your unqualified opinion?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 10:15
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,245
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



QUOTE (TryOut @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 08:26) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 01:42) *
The front of your vehicle might have gone over the line on amber, but if the light changed and was red by the time the rear of your vehicle crossed, then you are guilty, as well as if the officer considers you could have stopped safely on the amber.

That is just made up nonsense.


No, actually it is not, and the point about the rear of the vehicle may be unlikely in a small car, but we have seen drivers of articulated vehicles in slow moving traffic caught by just that situation.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
thefuture
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 13:27
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 5 Aug 2020
Member No.: 109,328



Thanks for all the comments so far!
So plan A is out the question as the 2 weeks rule is only for NIPs. TIL

Uploaded the dashcam footage here (unlisted YouTube video)
https://youtu.be/cBF9RZPczzo

Let me know what you think!

Further context:
- the police car that stopped me is on the right, next to the lights and was driving opposite
- i believe there was a car behind me, so stopping in that situation would’ve been more dangerous
- both wheels and back of car clearly passed the stop line BEFORE the light turned red
- the police offer said “if it was a yellow we wouldn’t of stopped you, we’ve all been there” (I have audio recording of the whole conversation which I can use in court of them saying that)

Further questions:
- could I fight this on my own, or would I likely need a good traffic lawyer?
- should I just take the easy option of doing the course (really want to avoid that as a. I feel I didn’t do anything wrong and b. It’ll still go on my record meaning if something happens in the next 4 years I wouldn’t be offered one, and stays on file for 8 years I think?) I also believe you don’t have to declare to insurance unless they ask.

This post has been edited by thefuture: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 14:50
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NewJudge
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 14:16
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,488
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



Your clip does support your contention that you were clear of the "Stop" line (which is the first of the two) before red came on. Your dashcam was almost in the middle of the junction when the lights changed to red and the whole of your car - unless it is exceptionally long - must have been well clear of the first stop line. Based on that evidence, which is certainly stronger than that of two officers who witnessed, but did not record the incident, I cannot see how a court can be sure enough to conclude that you crossed on red.

However, my view is that you could and should have stopped. You had adequate time and distance to do so. By my (admittedly unscientific) timing you crossed the stop line a good two seconds after amber was displayed and when approaching lights you should be prepared for them to change. If you are prosecuted on the basis that you crossed on amber and your defence is that it was unsafe to do so you may be on shaky ground. Simply saying there was a car behind you is hardly likely to cut it as that would apply to a great number of drivers.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 14:39
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 49,993
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



As above really.

Yes you didn’t pass on red, but, using the timings of the proportion of Amber before and after you crossed the line, you had the distance to stop safely and could be found guilty on that basis.

You could try sharing this with the officer involved and/or his supervisor and ask him to reconsider as I think the ‘safe to stop’ argument is within a narrow margin.

If you take it to court I see no issue with doing it yourself, you have your witness testimony and the video acting as your contemporaneous notes, the bench either accept or not your version of events.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 15:14
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37,346
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



I agree - definitely not red over ASL. Any defence would have to focus on whether it was safe to stop. It seems you could have stopped - it was a 20mph?

If asked by an insurer you'd have to declare a course. They can be taken every 3 years (based on date of offence) - different offences have differential courses so a red light course wouldn't generally preclude a speeding one.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 15:19


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
disgrunt
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 15:55
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 393
Joined: 8 Dec 2012
Member No.: 58,778



Looking at street view, surely it’s a 30?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
thefuture
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 16:04
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: 5 Aug 2020
Member No.: 109,328



If I remember correct, it was 20mph.
(Edit: I checked - it’s deff 20, there’s just no repeater signs in that bit)

I must have felt someone was tailing me closely enough to do that, as it’s something I simply wouldn’t do. Only thing is I can’t say for sure 100% and have no evidence to prove that.

It helps I do have a clean licence, been driving for close to 10 years and nothing like this has happened before for credibility reasons.

God I love this place lol. I thought it’d be an open and shut case as it’s so clear I didn’t run a red light.

Also - they cautioned me for running a red light NOT an amber.

Does this make any difference?

This post has been edited by thefuture: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 16:05
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 16:10
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37,346
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (thefuture @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 17:04) *
Also - they cautioned me for running a red light NOT an amber.

Does this make any difference?

I answered this in the other thread. Don't take it literally… it doesn’t magic you an automatic defence.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 15:39) *
You could try sharing this with the officer involved and/or his supervisor and ask him to reconsider as I think the ‘safe to stop’ argument is within a narrow margin.

^ this


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWMB2
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 16:20
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 9 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,205



For reference, Re. 'amber not red':
(e)the amber signal shall, when shown alone, convey the same prohibition as the red signal, except that, as respects any vehicle which is so close to the stop line that it cannot safely be stopped without proceeding beyond the stop line, it shall convey the same indication as the green signal or green arrow signal which was shown immediately before it;
The latter part of that is the bit that allows a 'not safe to stop' argument (dependent of course on the circumstances).


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 8 Oct 2021 - 16:43
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 49,993
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



In a 20 limit you most definitely had space to stop IMO.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

8 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 4th December 2021 - 21:02
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.