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Driving without due care and speeding
Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:02
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Hi All,

Need some advice please:(

So 6 months ago, I was stopped by a police car on A road, who said I was speeding and driving without due care and attention(I think). He showed me the speed gun which said 72mph on a 50 zone.

He said he was giving me a section 59 notice and I would get something through the post.

I never got a section 59 warning but 6 months later, I got a single justice procedure notice and looks like they produced it 3 days before 6 months yet I received it just a day late, which I think doesn't matter.
However on his statement he doesn't mention he said he would be giving me a section 59 notice.

Now, I don't believe I was going that fast for sure but I can't know my speed for sure, could have been a bit over 50 and I think I did tell the office this too at the time. I had just joined the A road at that point, so would have sped up from 30 to get to 50.

For the driving without due care, he said I was weaving in and out of lanes. I did change lanes 2-3 times I think, but I signalled each time. I Went into the right lane, someone was tailing me, and there was space on the left so he went and I quickly did the same to come back to the middle and left maybe too I think.

There was no accident, I signalled to change lanes and I may have undertaken another car which was slower but in the middle lane when there was space on the left lane, but I was not speeding at the time(def not over 70).

I am really worried, as this could impact my job too and I have always had a clean licence. Should I get legal representation for it or simply represent myself?
Is it covered under house legal insurance or is that just for legal advice for anything?


Does it matter that he said I would get a section 59 and got a SJPN?
There was another car that was speeding and undertaking. Did they clock that one and then ended up catching me? (Does the LASER pro 4 gun tak ea picture of the car when it snaps the speed?)


Also I was alone, and afraid and I didn't understand why he made it sound really harsh, telling me they don't wat me on the road etc. I was pretty intimidated and just went quiet, and took the telling off lol

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:03
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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:05
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Are both offences listed on the SJP notice ?
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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:07
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:05) *
Are both offences listed on the SJP notice ?


Yes, 2 charge sheets, 1 offence on each charge sheet
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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:15
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For the speeding - the evidence will be the measurement taken by an approved device ( the Laser) ....fighting that will be incredibly difficult.

For Careless Driving/Without Due Care .....that is a subjective offence (i.e. someone's opinion) that requires your driving to be shown to have been "below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver" ...

You say you were switching lanes, and undertaking, which may well be enough (combined with the speed) to easily satisfy that definition.

If you do plead not guilty (to either) ...bear in mind the potential costs of a trial should you lose ( £600 +).

Whether or not a s59 warning was given or not isn't really relevant.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:15
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Logician
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:33
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There is some consolation in that for two offences committed on the same occasion you normally get points only for the more serious offence, careless driving does go up to 9 points but it does not seem to be the most serious it could be, so I think that you are unlikely to get more than 6 points even if guilty of both offences.


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southpaw82
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:37
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You don’t have to receive anything in writing for a s 59 warning (though that may be force policy). It sounds like you did receive the warning, at least verbally.

You need to check your insurance policy to see if your legal cover includes driving offences or not (I have represented people covered by LEI for dangerous driving before).


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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:04
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:15) *
For the speeding - the evidence will be the measurement taken by an approved device ( the Laser) ....fighting that will be incredibly difficult.

For Careless Driving/Without Due Care .....that is a subjective offence (i.e. someone's opinion) that requires your driving to be shown to have been "below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver" ...

You say you were switching lanes, and undertaking, which may well be enough (combined with the speed) to easily satisfy that definition.

If you do plead not guilty (to either) ...bear in mind the potential costs of a trial should you lose ( £600 +).

Whether or not a s59 warning was given or not isn't really relevant.


Yes, I think the speeding is difficult, but I am really suprised i could have clocked that speed so quickly. There were other cars speeding, liek the one tailing me who was changing lanes without signalling. The officer later thought, i was racing him, which i wasn't, i am too old for this **** lol

So i switched lanes a few times, but i signalled each time, chcked my mirrors and switched, I didn't do it like the other car did. The problem is, as you say this can still be percieved as driving without due care right? This law is very subjective.

With regards to the S59: That is what he said he is giving me, and that I would get something through the post. He has mentioned everything in his statement but convinitely left out any mention of this.

QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:33) *
There is some consolation in that for two offences committed on the same occasion you normally get points only for the more serious offence, careless driving does go up to 9 points but it does not seem to be the most serious it could be, so I think that you are unlikely to get more than 6 points even if guilty of both offences.



Oh thanks for this, I didn't know! Sounds like pleading guilty on both would be easier but it just doesn't sit right with me as I am not guilty on the driving without due care and feel like it's really harsh! With the speed, it looks like it is category 2 so would be 4 points

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:14
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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:19
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:37) *
You don’t have to receive anything in writing for a s 59 warning (though that may be force policy). It sounds like you did receive the warning, at least verbally.

You need to check your insurance policy to see if your legal cover includes driving offences or not (I have represented people covered by LEI for dangerous driving before).


Yes i received the S59 warning. Just find it strange it is not mentioned in his statement. Why did he not give me a ticket? I didn't sign anything or see anything. I was a warning and off you go.

Oh i see. I don't have legal cover with car insurance but need ot check if i do with home. Also the statment has no witness signature....does this matter at all?
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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:34
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:19) *
Also the statment has no witness signature....does this matter at all?

No, it is of no help.

Switching lanes (and indicating) may not be enough for WDC, but undertaking, and especially when significantly over the speed limit, probably is.

But the law is subjective, and peoples opinions will differ, which makes the view of the magistrate difficult sometimes to predict.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:48
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The Rookie
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 12:50
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:19) *
Yes i received the S59 warning. Just find it strange it is not mentioned in his statement. Why did he not give me a ticket? I didn't sign anything or see anything. I was a warning and off you go.

There is no 'ticket' for S59 (whatever you mean by ticket in that context) all that matters is you are aware a warning was issued and you clearly were!


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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:37
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:50) *
QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:19) *
Yes i received the S59 warning. Just find it strange it is not mentioned in his statement. Why did he not give me a ticket? I didn't sign anything or see anything. I was a warning and off you go.

There is no 'ticket' for S59 (whatever you mean by ticket in that context) all that matters is you are aware a warning was issued and you clearly were!

Yes, i am fine with that but my questions are :
Why did he not mention it in his statement, but mentioned everything else?
He deemed it to be S59 antosocial behaviour, so that is what he gave, why has it changed now to DWDC?


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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:55
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:19) *
Also the statment has no witness signature....does this matter at all?

No, it is of no help.

Switching lanes (and indicating) may not be enough for WDC, but undertaking, and especially when significantly over the speed limit, probably is.

But the law is subjective, and peoples opinions will differ, which makes the view of the magistrate difficult sometimes to predict.


So the speed was clocked while he was stationary, and the comment is that that I was weaving from lane to lane, undertook other vehicles while travelling in execess of 50mph but at this point it is nto measured, as i assume they got in the car and followed.

So at this point i am not sure what to do. If i pleade not guilt, it goes to court and i have to go into court etc, and i really doubt they would accept my word over the officers.

There is video evidence, so can i request this first before entering a plea?(although i doubt they would be in a rush to get it to me before the dealine) Or can i pleade not guilty, ask for evidence and then accept a guilty plea (if it looks like weaved in and out or forgot to signal maybe) without going to court and hence save the court fees?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 14:49
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 13:19) *
Also the statment has no witness signature....does this matter at all?

No because his signature doesn’t need to be witnessed. That’s for children etc.

QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 14:37) *
Yes, i am fine with that but my questions are :
Why did he not mention it in his statement, but mentioned everything else?
He deemed it to be S59 antosocial behaviour, so that is what he gave, why has it changed now to DWDC?

Why would he need to mention it in his statement?

S 59 requires the vehicle to be driven without due care or otherwise than on a road, so he hasn’t changed anything - he must have had due care in mind before he issued the s 59 warning.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 14:55
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 14:37) *
Yes, i am fine with that but my questions are :
Why did he not mention it in his statement, but mentioned everything else?
He deemed it to be S59 antosocial behaviour, so that is what he gave, why has it changed now to DWDC?

Because it’s not relevant to your guilt or innocence.
He hasn’t, an S59 should only be issued where an offence contrary to sections 3 or 34 RTA (which includes DWDCA) committed that also causes alarm or distress, nothing has changed.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 16:01
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Thank you all for the reponses. Putting the S59 to bed.

Now i am left with whether i should plead guilty to not on both counts(even though I am not guilty) Just because i I cannot see how they would believe me over a police officer and I cannot afford the court fees.

SPEED-
I just had joined at that junction, and it's not a straight road either, so i can't imagine i would have clocked a speed over 70 at that point. The only proof they sent is a picture of the gun.
There was another car that was speeding and undertaking(one tailing me). Did they clock that one and then ended up catching me? (The PROLASER pro 4 gun doesn't take a picture of the car) I say this because after it stopped tailing me and went into the left lane, i did the same, and hence why he thought i was racing it, but that is not the case, i wanted to get off the right lane.

DWDCA-
The DWDCA seems very harsh given the circumstances: I did signal and change lanes ( wasn't weaving in/out), i don't think i was going over 50mph at this point, I have like 10 years ND, and a clean licence.


Can i request the evidence before entering a plea? If so, how?

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 16:06
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TMC Towcester
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 16:19
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Evidence is shared if the case proceeds to trial - so be careful!!

Two officers in the car is all the evidence that's needed.............
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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 17:57
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 17:19) *
Evidence is shared if the case proceeds to trial - so be careful!!

Two officers in the car is all the evidence that's needed.............



Can i not request it under freedom of info? i.e i was stopped 6 months ago, please can i have the video evidence of this?

Also, if it doesn't go to court, then they base their decision solely on th statement or will they review the video evidence mentioned in the statement? i.e will they have the full evidence? I hope they do
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Jlc
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 19:22
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 18:57) *
Can i not request it under freedom of info? i.e i was stopped 6 months ago, please can i have the video evidence of this?

No. Exceptions under GDPR too.


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Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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TMC Towcester
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 20:05
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QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 18:57) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 17:19) *
Evidence is shared if the case proceeds to trial - so be careful!!

Two officers in the car is all the evidence that's needed.............



Can i not request it under freedom of info? i.e i was stopped 6 months ago, please can i have the video evidence of this?

Also, if it doesn't go to court, then they base their decision solely on th statement or will they review the video evidence mentioned in the statement? i.e will they have the full evidence? I hope they do


No and no.

The former is as described above and the latter (if uncontested - i.e. guilty plea) requires no evidence as the offence is admitted.
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Metal Gear
post Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 21:29
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 21:05) *
QUOTE (Metal Gear @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 18:57) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 17:19) *
Evidence is shared if the case proceeds to trial - so be careful!!

Two officers in the car is all the evidence that's needed.............



Can i not request it under freedom of info? i.e i was stopped 6 months ago, please can i have the video evidence of this?

Also, if it doesn't go to court, then they base their decision solely on th statement or will they review the video evidence mentioned in the statement? i.e will they have the full evidence? I hope they do


the latter (if uncontested - i.e. guilty plea) requires no evidence as the offence is admitted.



Yes, but the DWDCA is subjective, and the penalty varies depending on severity, so surely they need evidence to judge the severity, no? How else can they decide whether it is 3 points, ot 6?

Hmmm someone mentioned earlier that because th eoffence are on one incient they give you points and and fine for one of the offences only? is that true?
Also, what do you think the best and wors case scenario is if pleadin guilty and if pleading not guilty? Thanks:)
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