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Fined for having part of my car enter a yellow box
qwertyK
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 12:35
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Hi there,
Today, saw a letter in the post for me and it was addressed from Redbridge Council. For those who are familiar with the area, it was at the junction of Barley Lane and Chadwell Heath Lane - I was trying to turn right into Barley Lane, so I could get onto the Eastern Ave (A12) Eastbound; anyone familiar with this junction knows the traffic light sequencing is pathetic, and I got most of my car across into the lane, the rear end of it ended up in the box, just margionally so. Now I know full well you're not sposed to stop in these boxes, so it wasn't me thinking I could, I simply thought I had enough time and a chance to get over fully into the lane. I'm a new driver, so my judgement has yet to fully mature. I remember at the time, and I can see in the iamge they sent me, that I am not blocking any cars at all, none of them actually stopped, they could pass freely. Is it just futile attempting to appeal? I'm told the contravention was "noted by an enforcement officer who was observing images from a roadside camera".

I've resigned to paying the fine, even though it doesn't really seem fair. I can understand it if I actually blocked the entire road, and prevented any traffic coming but that wasn't the case.

I reviewed the footage, and it just backs up my case even further, if the car had moved forward a bit in front I probably could have got out of the box.

Do I have grounds for an appeal?
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post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 12:35
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 12:44
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Post the PCN and video. We can't help without seeing the video.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs etc.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.
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qwertyK
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 12:50
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 13:44) *
Post the PCN and video. We can't help without seeing the video.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. https://imgbb.com has BBCode to embed pics on the forum. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com Or use Google Docs etc.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfB3vVJkZlc...eature=youtu.be
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 13:06
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The whole purpose of that box is to allow drivers to exit the side road.

There is an exemption when turning right that you may wait in the box if you a prevented from exiting by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles waiting to turn right but have not completed their right turn as in this case


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qwertyK
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 13:21
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:06) *
The whole purpose of that box is to allow drivers to exit the side road.

There is an exemption when turning right that you may wait in the box if you a prevented from exiting by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles waiting to turn right but have not completed their right turn as in this case


So should I appeal?
I thought I was actually permitted to do this
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 13:50
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We've seen this box a few times - eg:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=135206

The right turn exemption does not apply as that would mean you could block one lane of traffic with impunity and it's not what we see in other T junctions, eg Bagleys Road. The right turn exemption applies at crossroads.

Here though you had room to exit had you gone further forward and made a sharper turn so I would go for no contravention.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:50) *
We've seen this box a few times - eg:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=135206

The right turn exemption does not apply as that would mean you could block one lane of traffic with impunity and it's not what we see in other T junctions, eg Bagleys Road. The right turn exemption applies at crossroads.

Here though you had room to exit had you gone further forward and made a sharper turn so I would go for no contravention.


show me where it say's that in the regs please I have a few cases allowed in similar circumstances


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TMC Towcester
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:50) *
Here though you had room to exit had you gone further forward and made a sharper turn so I would go for no contravention.


This seems most pragmatic and beyond interpretation - could easily have moved 1m forward or madethe turn into the O/S/L before merging?
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qwertyK
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:42
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So, do I appeal? I'm inclined to do so because regardless of the highway code, I wasn't even blocking traffic, and as pointed out, could have gone round to the right.
Honestly, I don't know why I didn't, I'm new and when I was learning I did things that didn't really make sense, like making things harder for myself.
If I appeal, will i be subject to the higher charge if they rule against me?
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MrChips
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 16:20
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I agree with PMB. The car in front of you has yet to complete its right turn (it is still indicating right at the end of the video and has not yet fully joined and aligned itself with the main road). As such you are allowed to wait inside the box if that car is what is preventing you from exiting.

Arguably not was intended, but how the legislation is drafted.

As drafted the legislation allows you just to enter the box and sit there indefinitely as long as there isn't a stationary car blocking your exit at the other end, and we know that test is applied literally, so I don't see why the turning right exemption wouldn't be.
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Longtime Lurker
post Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 16:34
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QUOTE (qwertyK @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:42) *
So, do I appeal? I'm inclined to do so because regardless of the highway code, I wasn't even blocking traffic, and as pointed out, could have gone round to the right.
Honestly, I don't know why I didn't, I'm new and when I was learning I did things that didn't really make sense, like making things harder for myself.
If I appeal, will i be subject to the higher charge if they rule against me?


We don't know, because we've not seen the PCN.
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 08:30
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QUOTE (MrChips @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 17:20) *
As drafted the legislation allows you just to enter the box and sit there indefinitely as long as there isn't a stationary car blocking your exit at the other end, and we know that test is applied literally, so I don't see why the turning right exemption wouldn't be.

An adjudicator could well apply a purposive interpretation, it's not exactly clear-cut.


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stamfordman
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 08:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 15:35) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 17 Jun 2021 - 14:50) *
We've seen this box a few times - eg:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=135206

The right turn exemption does not apply as that would mean you could block one lane of traffic with impunity and it's not what we see in other T junctions, eg Bagleys Road. The right turn exemption applies at crossroads.

Here though you had room to exit had you gone further forward and made a sharper turn so I would go for no contravention.


show me where it say's that in the regs please I have a few cases allowed in similar circumstances


The regs are written for vehicles waiting in the box to turn. I agree that the wording is not clear and there is a loophole that could apply but there is is no way in my view that the car ahead in this case can be seen not to have completed a turn.

I agree also that this box is to allow traffic out of the side road - the box should extend across the entire carriageway but then we get into the Bagleys territory of what happens if you turn and are in the box but out of the way of the first lane.

If you have examples of wins in this scenario let's have a look. The reps you wrote in the other thread I cited worked on the council but it was a very different scenario.

In this case I think the exit wasn't blocked.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 08:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 09:10
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QUOTE
The regs are written for vehicles waiting in the box to turn



What is the OP doing?

2190374012 2190062519 2190001784 2180035633

I also have a number that would support that the OP could have moved forward but will not put forward any that rely on the changing lane as it is contrary to the panel decision in that you must consider the traffic condition for the lane taken


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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 10:22
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is no way in my view that the car ahead in this case can be seen not to have completed a turn.

+1.

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 10:54
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 11:22) *
is no way in my view that the car ahead in this case can be seen not to have completed a turn.

+1.


In no ay could the car in front carry on along the carriageway without turning further to the right so i stick to my view , none the less one of the cases listed deals with this saying it doesn't matter for to find such would frustrate the intention of the box


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MrChips
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 10:59
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Fair enough - I'm not speaking from a position of much experience in front of adjudicators, just based on my interpretation of the rules as they are drafted.

I have seen other examples of a similar junction layout where a car coming from the side road has entered and sat in the box wanting to turn right, but had to wait for a pause in the (moving) traffic coming from left to right to complete the turn. That wasn't a contravention as the stop was not due to stationary vehicles, so by analogy it isn't necessarily a problem to advance and plonk yourself in the box while waiting to complete a right turn manoeuvre so long as the legislation wording is in your favour.

Motorists aren't necessarily expected to be intimately familiar with the TSRGD 2016, but they are with the highway code. That says:

"...you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right." I think the council and adjudicator would find it hard to say the driver hadn't complied with that.

There is nothing in there which says that clause only applies where the junction is at a crossroads.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 10:59
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Exactly. +1. Given the clear contravention I could not think of an adj who would do otherwise.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 11:29
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The facts are that the facts are open to interpretation. PMB quotes a few cases where adjudicators have found that oncoming traffic can mean traffic coming from the left as here and also allowed the right turn completion argument at a T junction. Unfortunately there are a lot more cases where opposite decisions have been reached including at this location.

What we can say for sure is that each case turns on its circumstances and we have to include all possible arguments as you never know whether an adjudicator will bite on a particular aspect.

In this case a lack of right turn completion of the car ahead is a dead duck but could be mentioned. And it cannot be the case that if the opposite lane is blocked you are allowed to merrily drive into the box and block the other lane for an hour.

This turns on the traffic situation and judgment of driver in getting out of the side road. In my view there is enough leeway to see that OP had reasonable grounds and had some space and was certainly not wholly in the box. But not a sure thing at all.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 11:29
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MrChips
post Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 11:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 12:29) *
In this case a lack of right turn completion of the car ahead is a dead duck


Is the situation not the same as this one from case 2190001784? Emphasis added in bold...

"What Mr. Mollanaghi was doing at that junction was, self-evidently, turning right, and he entered the box junction for the purpose of doing so. There could not be any dispute about that. Sub-paragraph (3)(a) is therefore satisfied.

The EA asserts that nonetheless the exemption does apply because sub-paragraph 3(b) does not apply. That is because, the EA submits, there were no ‘oncoming’ vehicles. That is indeed correct as a statement of fact. However, as subsection (3)(b) makes clear, the presence of oncoming vehicles or, respectively, of vehicles which are stationary whilst completing right turns, are alternatives. It follows that it is not necessary, for sub-paragraph (3) to apply, for there to be oncoming vehicles.

I turn then to consider whether, on the evidence, sub-paragraph 3(b) applies. I looked carefully at the position of the vehicle ahead of Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle vis-à-vis the carriageway at the point the two vehicles were stationary. I find that neither Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle nor the car in front of it had completed their respective right turns. The vehicle ahead had not yet fully lined up with the carriageway and was still in the process of turning right when it came to a halt. Mr. Mollanaghi’s vehicle was only stationary behind the vehicle ahead whilst that other vehicle was stationary in the position I have described, waiting to complete its own right turn. Accordingly, I find that sub-paragraph (3)(b) applies with the effect that sub-paragraph (3) as a whole applies and the contravention is not proved."

Or does the fact the box doesn't cover both sides of the carriageway give this case a different interpretation? I.e. once the car ahead has cleared the box (even though it is still completing it's right turn) the exemption no longer applies?

This post has been edited by MrChips: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 - 11:45
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