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[NIP Wizard] 56 in 40 - Handheld device windows closed.
stinkypoopy
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:28
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2020
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Millennium way, Lowestoft
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? -
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Police car was facing Northbound, nobody was outside of the vehicle, all windows were closed, it was parked horizontally to the road. Time on NIP is later than stated on Twitter.

The NIP mentioned the speed was captured with a handheld device, I suspect they were packing up.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 19:28:18 +0000
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post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:28
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:32
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Not sure what horizontally to the road means, parallel? (I’d assumed it wasn’t stood on its nose).

Unlikely a postal NIP would be issued from a regular police car, maybe it was from a van you missed?

Not sure how twitter comes into it?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:33


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stinkypoopy
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:43
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 20:32) *
Not sure what horizontally to the road means, parallel? (I’d assumed it wasn’t stood on its nose).

Unlikely a postal NIP would be issued from a regular police car, maybe it was from a van you missed?

Not sure how twitter comes into it?


Dunno why I put horizontal, yikes. It was a BMW ARV, it's also mentioned on the S172 notice that it was a hand held device. Twitter doesn't really come into it, just mildly amusing.

This post has been edited by stinkypoopy: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:44
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:48
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You seem to recall the incident, so why are you unsure who was driving?
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stinkypoopy
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 19:51
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 20:48) *
You seem to recall the incident, so why are you unsure who was driving?


Just what I pressed on the NIP Wizard
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 21:43
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Rubbish in, rubbish out.

Please keep your information correct.

Why would an ARV have a speed measurement device on board?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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southpaw82
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:06
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:43) *
Why would an ARV have a speed measurement device on board?

Some forces (did) use cross-trained traffic/ARV officers (since they tend to do advanced driving courses anyway). Either way, no reason it couldn’t. That’s assuming it was an ARV...


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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stinkypoopy
post Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:28
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 23:06) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:43) *
Why would an ARV have a speed measurement device on board?

Some forces (did) use cross-trained traffic/ARV officers (since they tend to do advanced driving courses anyway). Either way, no reason it couldn’t. That’s assuming it was an ARV...


It was an ARV/Traffic car, the Tweet put out for this specific trap mentioned it was an ARV however Suffolk and Norfolk have a combined Roads and Armed police team, either way the offense was recorded by them and subsequently issued a NIP specifying "Manned Equipment" so it wasn't an automatic speed camera.

This post has been edited by stinkypoopy: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:28
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Logician
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 01:22
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Too fast for a course, you should get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points, provided you already have fewer than 9 points. You need to clearly and unequivocally name the driver when you return the form or things could get worse.


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The Rookie
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 06:14
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 23:06) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 16 Oct 2020 - 22:43) *
Why would an ARV have a speed measurement device on board?

Some forces (did) use cross-trained traffic/ARV officers (since they tend to do advanced driving courses anyway). Either way, no reason it couldn’t. That’s assuming it was an ARV...

Fully agree, but it’s unusual to put one into an ARV for a shift.

That said the OP now says ARV/traffic car to further muddy the waters.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 17:20
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In Norfolk & Suffolk armed response and traffic are now a single unit, so every traffic cop has a gun & every cop with a gun is a traffic cop. Nothing mentioned in this thread suggests any defence is available.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 18:03
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Apparently laser speed detection devices are not approved for use through glass windows as this constitutes an unapproved housing - according to at least one prosecution expert witness - although whether they would say the same if it assisted the defence is another matter...


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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TryOut
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 18:54
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:03) *
Apparently laser speed detection devices are not approved for use through glass windows as this constitutes an unapproved housing - according to at least one prosecution expert witness - although whether they would say the same if it assisted the defence is another matter...

They are not approved for use through glass nor does the approval place a condition on the devices not to be used through glass. The Approval is silent as far as saying they can’t be used through glass. I would say you know very well that devices to measure speed need no Approval to be used in evidence in any case.
If section 20 RTOA is not being used to certify the evidence why couldn’t an Approved device be used in a way that is not Approved? Not that the Approval prevents it anyway.
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cp8759
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 18:58
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:03) *
Apparently laser speed detection devices are not approved for use through glass windows as this constitutes an unapproved housing - according to at least one prosecution expert witness - although whether they would say the same if it assisted the defence is another matter...

They probably would if the defence instructed (i.e. paid) them.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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baggins1234
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:02
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 07:14) *
Fully agree, but it’s unusual to put one into an ARV for a shift.


Not that it helps the OP....but in the words of Tom Jones....
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andy_foster
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:58) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:03) *
Apparently laser speed detection devices are not approved for use through glass windows as this constitutes an unapproved housing - according to at least one prosecution expert witness - although whether they would say the same if it assisted the defence is another matter...

They probably would if the defence instructed (i.e. paid) them.


One of our members approached the impartial experts in question as a defendant and was told that they could not accept an instruction form him as it would constitute a conflict of interest.


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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cp8759
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:46
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 20:43) *
One of our members approached the impartial experts in question as a defendant and was told that they could not accept an instruction form him as it would constitute a conflict of interest.

Surely only if they were approached at a time when they were also acting for the Crown? Otherwise it means that once you've given expert evidence for the Crown, you cannot ever act for anyone else as it would be a conflict? Unless the CPS has them on a retainer?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 19:58
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As a matter of law, no party can have property in an expert witness. Their duty is to assist the court.


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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TryOut
post Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 23:54
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 17 Oct 2020 - 20:58) *
As a matter of law, no party can have property in an expert witness. Their duty is to assist the court.

...and if the witness was already instructed by the Crown in a case they would be reporting to the court. So why would the witness accept an instruction from the defendant when the witness would be reporting on the same evidence to the same court?
Your report is somewhat distorted and without context I fear.
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andy_foster
post Sun, 18 Oct 2020 - 13:50
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The prosecution had not instructed an expert witness at this stage.

My report is slightly devoid of unnecessary detail, but not distorted or devoid of relevant context.


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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