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London Congestion Charge on a Saturday!
Snowynight
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 18:59
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Hi,

Please see the PCN for London Congestion Charge below:













It was at weekend. I absolutely had no idea that from 22nd June 2020 the London Congestion Charge has changed to apply to the entire weekend as well!! CC over the weekend just sounds unreasonable! If I knew this change, I definitely would have avoided the zone or paid in time sad.gif

Also, I was just passing through CC zone to my destination in zone2. I entered the zone in the east side (Tower Hill) and honestly did not see the (tiny) time on the sign. In fact I do not know if the time on the sign there has been updated. Anyway, I am happy to pay the charge of £15 but the penalty at £80 is absurd. Any suggestions on what grounds I could appeal?

Thanks very much in advance!

This post has been edited by Snowynight: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 14:44
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post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 18:59
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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 19:09
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Short of checking whether the signs had been updated, I don't think there's much you can do.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 20:34
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Over a month into the new rules, and we have few examples of TFL using discretion for the CC at the best of times. The CC is the tightest contravention we see, I reckon - there are a few won on signage.

You can try - you never know they may have some leeway but I doubt it beyond 2 weeks.

I'm very supportive of anti-car measures but extending the charge to the City area at weekends has no value in my view. West End yes. Now I can't pick my wife up from our usual supermarket (Waitrose Barbican) on Saturday without paying £15.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 21:01
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Snowynight
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:02
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Thanks!

I'd like to try but what should I say? Any suggestions?
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Snowynight
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 15:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 20:34) *
Over a month into the new rules, and we have few examples of TFL using discretion for the CC at the best of times. The CC is the tightest contravention we see, I reckon - there are a few won on signage.

You can try - you never know they may have some leeway but I doubt it beyond 2 weeks.

I'm very supportive of anti-car measures but extending the charge to the City area at weekends has no value in my view. West End yes. Now I can't pick my wife up from our usual supermarket (Waitrose Barbican) on Saturday without paying £15.



Thanks 'stamfordman'! Agreed this unexpected weekend CC is really pointless!

I plan to try a representation. Any suggestions on what I could say?
And any possible flaws on the PCN you can see?
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stamfordman
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 16:11
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I don't think we know of any flaws in TFL's PCNs. That doesn't leave you with anything other than a plea for discretion, which they almost certainly won't give.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:31
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I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 21:31) *
I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.


I had a look some time ago and nothing jumped out. If we knew the location as cited on the PCN we could check the signage


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Snowynight
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 22:50
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 21:31) *
I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.


I had a look some time ago and nothing jumped out. If we knew the location as cited on the PCN we could check the signage



Thanks! The location on the PCN is Grays Inn Road (Swinton Street/ Grays Inn Road).
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25
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Here?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5284312,-...6384!8i8192

You need to get the video


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roythebus
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:21
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The OP says he entered the C zone from Tower Hill east side. I may be round that area this evening (our rail replacement bus service runs from Barking to Tower Hill).

If he entered using Minories from Tower Hill one-way, the signs are clear for the ULEZ going north along Minories. There's also signs for the C zone for turning right to then go left and northwards along the A1210 (I forget the name of the road) towards Aldgate. These signs are all on the same small traffic island and I suppose the OP could try the "too much signage" defence. If I'm there later I'll get a picture.
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Snowynight
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:56
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).

This post has been edited by Snowynight: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 10:59
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:09
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QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything


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stamfordman
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:10
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I'm surprised you weren't picked up before leaving the zone but TFL has put up a bank of cameras here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5286752,-...6384!8i8192

Swinton Street is on the edge of the zone and not in it so it could be said the location is wrong.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:34
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The OP has given the location as:

Grays Inn Road (Swinton Street/Grays Inn)

This means that the car was 'being used on a road at the location' of GIR, not Swinton, doesn't it?

Furthermore, as GIR is one-way at this point, GSV and the PCN would suggest that OP was snapped leaving, therefore no evidence of minor incursion.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 14:16
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Snowynight
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 12:13
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything



Thanks.

To clarify, the location on the PCN is "Grays Inn Road" but the image shown is at the exit of the road, so technically the vehicle has passed beyond the "C zone ends" signs. Could this be an argument at all?

There's no reference to any videos on the PCN. You mean I should request the video from them?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 12:16
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QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything



Thanks.

To clarify, the location on the PCN is "Grays Inn Road" but the image shown is at the exit of the road, so technically the vehicle has passed beyond the "C zone ends" signs. Could this be an argument at all?

There's no reference to any videos on the PCN. You mean I should request the video from them?


Yes ask them for the video yes that you where the say you were in contravention is not in the zone is an argument


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Snowynight
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 12:33
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Thanks @PASTMYBEST!

Should I just appeal without requesting the video? the worry is that the video (if any) may actually go against me?
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stamfordman
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 12:41
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The video will just show you on a one way street that you could only have got to by being in the zone. I don't think there is much point in getting it.

Your best bet is to say you don't believe you were in the zone as the location on the PCN concerns a junction that is outside the zone. TFL often messes up responses.

That's the best I've got apart form paying and putting it behind you.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 12:42
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Snowynight
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 15:12
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Thanks very much everyone, very helpful! Here's my draft. Feel free to update/add anything. Clearly my writing is not that good.
And I'm not too sure about the "As per the attached Google map image, it is clear the location is outside the C Zone signs" part. What's the best way to put up the words/explanation?


"
I would like to make representations against the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) dated x/x/2020 under ground 3 - in the circumstances, no penalty charge is payable under the charging scheme, as the vehicle shown in the image was not within the charging area. The exact location on the PCN accompanied by the image concerns a junction (Swinton Street/Grays Inn Road) that is outside the charging zone. As per the attached Google map image, it is clear the location is outside the C Zone signs:



Therefore I request that the PCN be cancelled. I would highly appreciate your time in responding.
"
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