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Parked in resident bay with a suspension
Mumsey77
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 01:01
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Hi, I have a residents parking permit to park on the street where I live. I parked my car and went home - there was a car parked in front of me and a car parked in front of that car.

Next morning I had a ticket.

When I looked two car ahead there was a suspension sign on the lamp post. I had no reason to check that when I parked as I have a permit so wouldn’t need to check it. Also there were other cars parked in front of me and there was no sign of any works going on- even though the sign says from 21st July.

Do you think I have a chance at getting this PCN cancelled?

I have attached a photo of the PCN

Any help would be very much appreciated.


Here is a photo of the sign - sorry I don’t know how to make the file smaller-

https://ibb.co/Dpzbp4B
https://ibb.co/W27k6BP
https://ibb.co/DKMqCDp

This post has been edited by Mumsey77: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 23:39
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post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 01:01
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stamfordman
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 08:24
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

it's fatal not to check signs - you've now found there is a reason to check...

But let's see the council pics and a google street view link of location. Also repost the PCN. Did you take any pics? The suspension sign is important.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 08:24
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Incandescent
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 08:38
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+1
Also the OP needs to carefully read the conditions of issue of his permit. I suspect it will refer to the need to check for parking suspensions.
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 09:37
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I don't even know what the PCN is for, upload a decent resolution copy to an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com so we can take a look.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mumsey77
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 23:41
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Hi, I have added the photos in my first post.

Does it matter that absolutely no work has taken place since the sign was up 21st July? Also, lots of cars are still getting tickets as you don't really notice the sign when you park.
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Mumsey77
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 23:51
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Here are the photos that the CEO took

https://ibb.co/PtxVH5g
https://ibb.co/HHgK0Fd
https://ibb.co/K92HvKx
https://ibb.co/YQydLtj
https://ibb.co/yY4d19j

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.46300....71h,-11.84p,1z
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Incandescent
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 08:17
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QUOTE (Mumsey77 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 00:41) *
Hi, I have added the photos in my first post.

Does it matter that absolutely no work has taken place since the sign was up 21st July? Also, lots of cars are still getting tickets as you don't really notice the sign when you park.

It can matter depending on circumstances, and usually this issue is only dealt with at adjudication, (=London Tribunals), and the full PCN penalty would be in play. The sign is very prominent and claiming you didn't notice is unlikely to work at an adjudication.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 08:18
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stamfordman
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 09:01
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The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 11:18
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:01) *
The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.


The times could be confusing. Easily read as 08.00 to 18.00 each day rather than continuous, and if each day the PCN is outside the time of issue


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cp8759
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 14:22
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:01) *
The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.


The times could be confusing. Easily read as 08.00 to 18.00 each day rather than continuous, and if each day the PCN is outside the time of issue

No, the times are perfectly clear, the suspension times are 8 am to 6 pm each day biggrin.gif

And it's not for the motorist to second guess what the authority intended.

Draft reps:

-----------

Dear London Borough of Lambeth,

The sign photographed by the CEO indicated that parking is suspended between 8 am and 6 pm, the PCN was issued at 6:47 pm which is outside of the suspension hours. As this is a highways suspension, it seems logical that the suspension would match the working hours of the highways department, which I assume is why the suspension is only in force between 8 am and 6 pm. Whatever the case may be, it appears the PCN might be the error of an overzealous CEO, but I trust you will now cancel the penalty and ask the CEO's manager to give him appropriate support and guidance to avoid a repeat of this sort of error.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 14:35
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 15:22) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:01) *
The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.


The times could be confusing. Easily read as 08.00 to 18.00 each day rather than continuous, and if each day the PCN is outside the time of issue

No, the times are perfectly clear, the suspension times are 8 am to 6 pm each day biggrin.gif

And it's not for the motorist to second guess what the authority intended.

Draft reps:

-----------

Dear London Borough of Lambeth,

The sign photographed by the CEO indicated that parking is suspended between 8 am and 6 pm, the PCN was issued at 6:47 pm which is outside of the suspension hours. As this is a highways suspension, it seems logical that the suspension would match the working hours of the highways department, which I assume is why the suspension is only in force between 8 am and 6 pm. Whatever the case may be, it appears the PCN might be the error of an overzealous CEO, but I trust you will now cancel the penalty and ask the CEO's manager to give him appropriate support and guidance to avoid a repeat of this sort of error.



your not allowing for Mr Burke but the challenge is sound and the OP should use it


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cp8759
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 19:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 15:35) *
your not allowing for Mr Burke...

I'm not sure it is possible to do so dontknow.gif


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mumsey77
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 23:31
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:01) *
The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.


The times could be confusing. Easily read as 08.00 to 18.00 each day rather than continuous, and if each day the PCN is outside the time of issue



When we checked the sign after getting the PCN - that is what we initially thought - at a first glance.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 15:22) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:01) *
The suspension sign says shared use bay but it's a permit bay and the PCN says residents bay.


The times could be confusing. Easily read as 08.00 to 18.00 each day rather than continuous, and if each day the PCN is outside the time of issue

No, the times are perfectly clear, the suspension times are 8 am to 6 pm each day biggrin.gif

And it's not for the motorist to second guess what the authority intended.

Draft reps:

-----------

Dear London Borough of Lambeth,

The sign photographed by the CEO indicated that parking is suspended between 8 am and 6 pm, the PCN was issued at 6:47 pm which is outside of the suspension hours. As this is a highways suspension, it seems logical that the suspension would match the working hours of the highways department, which I assume is why the suspension is only in force between 8 am and 6 pm. Whatever the case may be, it appears the PCN might be the error of an overzealous CEO, but I trust you will now cancel the penalty and ask the CEO's manager to give him appropriate support and guidance to avoid a repeat of this sort of error.



Thank you so much for the draft letter - I really appreciate it. My letter would not have read so well. Thanks again.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 14:09
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OP,
I have a residents parking permit to park on the street where I live. I parked my car and went home...

Therefore you knew that you could park in the bay on display of your resident's permit. I presume you live nearby and are a frontager.

How could you therefore argue that 'permit' does not equal 'res permit'??

You also stated: I had no reason to check that when I parked as I have a permit so wouldn’t need to check it...

But you do.

And if this was your local parking area (you left your vehicle overnight) then did you not receive notification of the suspension from the council?

Just a few gaps in the facts which IMO it would be useful to address before penning your challenge.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 14:11
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 14:14
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What gaps? The OP has a permit so parked didn't check the sign. So what if the sign is inadequate it is inadequate seen or not The sign Also resident permit or not the sign identifies a permit bay .

If the council make mistakes they can be exploited, or are you now of the opinion that it is only the motorists who must be whiter than white


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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 16:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 15:14) *
What gaps? The OP has a permit so parked didn't check the sign. So what if the sign is inadequate it is inadequate seen or not The sign Also resident permit or not the sign identifies a permit bay .

If the council make mistakes they can be exploited, or are you now of the opinion that it is only the motorists who must be whiter than white

+1


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 18:36
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The PCN must state the grounds with sufficient clarity to convey the contravention.

It states 'residents bay'

The OP accepts they parked displaying a res permit, therefore the 'permit' relates to residents' permits.

IMO, they cannot with conviction or hope of success argue that permit excludes res permit holders or that the PCN lacks clarity.

As for other gaps, all it requires is that the OP confirms that they were not notified of the suspension by the council. So far their account is silent. This is simply a request to state what might be a fact rather than ask the council to guess/deduce. If their practice is to notify and the OP was not, then this bolsters your argument.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 19:00
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 19:36) *
The PCN must state the grounds with sufficient clarity to convey the contravention.

It states 'residents bay'

The OP accepts they parked displaying a res permit, therefore the 'permit' relates to residents' permits.

IMO, they cannot with conviction or hope of success argue that permit excludes res permit holders or that the PCN lacks clarity.

As for other gaps, all it requires is that the OP confirms that they were not notified of the suspension by the council. So far their account is silent. This is simply a request to state what might be a fact rather than ask the council to guess/deduce. If their practice is to notify and the OP was not, then this bolsters your argument.


No it is for the council to prove the case so they would need to claim they notified the OP and even if they did it would not alter the inadequacy of the sign. as regards the bay type I do not disagree with your point



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Mumsey77
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 00:14
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 15:09) *
OP,
I have a residents parking permit to park on the street where I live. I parked my car and went home...

Therefore you knew that you could park in the bay on display of your resident's permit. I presume you live nearby and are a frontager.

How could you therefore argue that 'permit' does not equal 'res permit'??

You also stated: I had no reason to check that when I parked as I have a permit so wouldn’t need to check it...

But you do.

And if this was your local parking area (you left your vehicle overnight) then did you not receive notification of the suspension from the council?

Just a few gaps in the facts which IMO it would be useful to address before penning your challenge.



Hi,

Yes, this is where I usually park my car (on this street) all the time. I parked my car overnight then in the morning we saw the PCN. We wasn't informed from the council that there would be a suspension - in fact we have never had such letters in the 11 years that we have lived here. Also, is it worth noting that there has been no work done at all while the suspension sign has been up?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 08:20
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Thanks.

So we've clearly established that it is accepted that 'permit' plus identifier on the sign = resident's permit. They are synonymous and therefore the use of (resident's..) on the PCN is OK IMO. Of course you could argue the contrary at adjudication with the full penalty in play.....!

So, don't risk the discount on this point.

What's left?

That the sign did not convey that the overnight periods of 1800-0800 were suspended.

It could be argued, but again I would not risk the discount.

At present an adjudicator's starting point would be photos of your car parked in the area described on the sign and your acknowledgement of the same. Pretty conclusive IMO.

As regards no work being carried out, yes that could be put. But subtly. The CEO simply sees the sign, but perhaps behind the scene the council knew that works were not due to be carried out - we live in difficult times and plenty of plans have been thrown into disarray. I would include that you use the location regularly and noticed that works did not commence until ****, therefore even if the contravention occurred, would it be FAIR to penalise a driver for this oversight.

And not....no works, you cannot issue a PCN, so there!!



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