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Yellow box junction - outside Waitrose south woodford
Princeperch
post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:07
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Hello

I haven't received it yet but I'll probably be getting a ticket in the post shortly.

Here is the box junction in question which is in the direction my car was travelling in.

I got caught out by a van starting to brake just as he left the box junction. I then thought there was enough space behind him for me but I am 99.9 of certain I misjudged it and a 1/3 of my car would have been in the yellow markings.

My question is this though:

Here is a picture of the box junction
https://ibb.co/7tGyLVW

Am I right that this box junction may be potentially unenforceable because of its layout and shape and the fact it extends past the junction but not to all sides of the curb? If it didn't extend past the junction I would have been well clear of it.

I also probably quite unusually have a dash cam video of the incident. I am not sure tho whether that will help me or not. What the video does show is that I actually could have used a clear lane on the left to completely clear the box junction (yeh I know what a wally) but because I thought there was enough room behind the van in front that is what I opted to do. I'll see if I can upload the video to you tube.

In the meanwhile does anyone think there is any mileage in arguing over the layout and size of the box? I'd be very grateful for any thoughts.


Also to add my car would have been sticking out into the bit of the box junction at the top right where it extends past the junction, probably by a metre or so

https://youtu.be/-fSXF_WFFgg

And here is the video
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post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:07
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stamfordman
post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:13
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Update this if you get a PCN. You shouldn't start a thread unless you have one. The only thing to check is are you the keeper and is the V5C up to date in address.
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Princeperch
post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:18
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Yes and yes to both those questions.

I'll definitely be getting a pcn. I thought there wasn't a camera there at the time but a bit of googling revealed others have got a ticket from that junction and there is a camera on the lamppost behind it and unfortunately I was partially in the yellow markings.


I was more interested (whether I get a pcn or not) whether this layout is valid or not.
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DJ Lexy
post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:47
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No point fretting about it until a PCN arrives.

If it does, the first thing you should do is get the video and post it here. What's most important is what the video shows your car doing. It makes a difference whether your car is half in the box or whether it's a tiny bit in the box. It also makes a difference whether you rushed into the box following the vehicle in front you, or hesitated for a moment to make sure it was clear.

The days of getting a PCN cancelled because the yellow lines aren't 100% up to spec are long gone. For parking PCNs, we have a legal concept of "substantial compliance". If the lines are slightly worn or imperfect but it's completley obvious to the Average Joe that they're double yellow lines, the lines are valid. Similar concepts apply to the condition and layout of yellow box junctions. The latest set of guidelines in the TSRGD 2016 are a lot more permissive than the previous ones:

QUOTE
8.2.1. The simplified marking relaxes many of the previous design rules, giving local authorities greater freedom to manage their roads, and allows the marking to be designed to cover all situations at junctions without the need for authorisation.

8.2.2. Applicable provisions to the marking are set out in S9‐8‐5(1) which permits the overall shape and size to be varied as appropriate. The marking is now fully flexible in terms of size, shape, outline, hatching angles and cut‐outs.


Although the box extends about two feet past the junction in one corner, it doesn't look unreasonable.

This post has been edited by DJ Lexy: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:48
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Princeperch
post Thu, 23 Jul 2020 - 09:53
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Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a bit annoyed with myself because if I were more on the ball I could have simply exited the box and been free and clear using the left hand lane. Ah well you live and learn don't you.
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Princeperch
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 08:17
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Well the PCN has now arrived:

https://ibb.co/1sYg4yZ


It was a pretty borderline decision to go behind the van when I saw him slowing down but I was only very marginally in the yellow box, the left hand lane was clear at the time (so like a wally I could have exited using that lane) and the box junction itself seems to extend a few feet past the junction (which if it didn't i wouldn't have been in the box).

Any thoughts? Or should I just pay the £65 ?

This post has been edited by Princeperch: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 08:26
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stamfordman
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 08:37
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Post the video.
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Princeperch
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 09:02
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R_nx0VWb6UQ&a...eature=youtu.be

I'm not v IT savvy so have taken a video of the video using my wife's phone, which may or may not be enough!

Excuse my wife chatting to my two year old son in the background.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:36
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Your are pretty much bang-to-rights, I'm afraid. You charged into the box like the cavalry following the white van very closely; fatal in London ! I cant see any possible appeal, you were well over any stopped time that might have been de minimis, The discount beckons, Reckon.
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hahadumball
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 10:55
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I'm no expert but I'll leave a point for those that are.

He has the dash cam footage on his other video it appears he's traveling with the flow of traffic however the van late braked pretty hard, the only way op would have stopped before the box would have likely resulted in the car behind being in his boot.

Op couldn't see past the van so based on his speed one would (stupidly) assume the traffic is free flowing only to find out the vans about to brake harshly leaving op no real option but to hit the box

Video shows him at a safe distance and the van started to brake on the keep clear with no apparent change of speed before that moment when he would have had a clear view ahead.


Its viewed better from his dash cam as their video looks like he was chancing it.


Cant see this being a defense and wouldn't fancy my chances at tribunal but just a point of interest.

This post has been edited by hahadumball: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 11:00
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 11:09
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post all of the PCN. use an external hosting site such as imgur


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Princeperch
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:20
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https://ibb.co/VLZ2B7c


https://ibb.co/NxDJPn4


Here are links to the front and back of the PCN.

I suspect I am going to be £65 poorer very shortly.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 12:32
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I would be happy to write a representation for you on the basis of de minimis and also that the box extends beyond the junction


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Princeperch
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 13:09
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That would be very kind of you- thank you

I assume the council will automatically reject it but what do we think my odds are taking it to an adjudicator? I was literally only a couple of feet in the box and I was well past the junction.

If I completely screwed it up (rather than only partially screwing it up) then I wouldn't have minded so much!
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 13:47
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QUOTE (Princeperch @ Tue, 28 Jul 2020 - 14:09) *
That would be very kind of you- thank you

I assume the council will automatically reject it but what do we think my odds are taking it to an adjudicator? I was literally only a couple of feet in the box and I was well past the junction.

If I completely screwed it up (rather than only partially screwing it up) then I wouldn't have minded so much!


We can never promise a win, but a fair shout can be made.


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Princeperch
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 09:23
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Might be a slightly dim question, but if I make representations and they are rejected by the council am I on the hook for 65 or 130? The notice suggests the latter as to benefit from the reduced payment I need to make payment of the reduced amount within 14 days. Presumably my representations will not be considered and (inevitably) rejected within 14 days?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:08
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The discount will be most likely reoffered on rejection and certainly if reps are made within 14 days, as that puts the case on hold while they consider.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 10:21
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Being blunt. If you make representations to the council on the only grounds you have they will reject them They might reoffer the discount but the law does not require them to.

If you want to fight this in reality it will be at the £130 . But on the plus side if you want to fight even if you lose you will not have to pay for between 4 to 6 months so save the cost of a cup of coffee every week and you will save the difference and not miss it.

Also there is a big chance the council will mess up their response to the extent that enforcement would be found illegal


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Princeperch
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:37
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Many thanks for your respective replies. I don't necessarily mind risking the increased amount but only if I am in with a good shout of prevailing at the adjudicator stage. In your considered experience am I taking a punt by taking it to the hearing stage or do you think I have 51pc or better of prevailing at the hearing on the arguments (setting aside the council making an admin error which would be a bonus)

Very grateful for your thoughts.

Eta presumably the arguments will be ;

1) de minimus

2) box junction extends way past the junction and the net is too wide and therefore i got caught because of It

3) the left hand lane was clear and I could have used that to exit the box



This post has been edited by Princeperch: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 12:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 13:01
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I reckon about 60/40 or a bit more

See 2180001857

he Appellant attended in person.

The Appellant raised a signage point and I do not think that the Authority has dealt with it.

The Appellant said that the box markings went well beyond the junction and while his vehicle was partially within the markings, it was actually outside the junction.

The box was installed at the entrance a fire station. The "junction" is therefore defined as "an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and (my emphasis) which is on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of the fire station.

It follows that the contravention can only occur if the vehicle stops within the junction markings and adjacent to the entrance of the fire station.

I am not satisfied that the vehicle was adjacent to the entrance.

I allow the appeal.

Then compare the overhang

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4567431,-...6384!8i8192

with yours

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5955116,0...6384!8i8192

And

2160332024

The allegation in these proceedings is that this vehicle entered and stopped in a box junction when prohibited. Upon a point being raised by the appellant as to the degree to which this vehicle was stationery within the box on it turning left into it on the council's poor quality video footage of the incident an supporting images taken therefrom although the vehicle stops with its back wheels positioned at the very edge of the box this infringement of box junction rules in that regard amounts to my mind no more than a de minimus breach of the prohibition and I am not accordingly satisfied that the contravention occurred.


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