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34J Clapham Park Road, Entering a bus lane when approaching the junction to turn left
phodges
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 21:47
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I have fallen victim to the same scam as thousands of others. There is a long history on this and I am asking views on the best current appeal.

My appeal is on the basis of inadequate signage and I'm taking my reference from case from 5th July 2017 submitted by Clatch http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114492


"I recognise that this bus lane is marked and signed along the road but is confusing as you approach the junction. The road layout as you approach the junction clearly shows a filter lane to the left which I moved to at the very last moment.

There is no signage that makes it clear the bus lane continues through the left filter and that they should not pass to the left of the traffic island to turn left.

In support of this witness the thousands of motorists that get tricked by this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB0_GylRMno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-RvPkVKYlw
Whilst these videos are from 2015, time lapse on Google Street confirm that signage has not been changed since then.

At minimum the island light should have a right arrow to tell drivers to keep to the right.

These days it is made all the more difficult because, like many, I followed my satnav when reaching this junction which emphasised the left turn."

thoughts and comments, welcomed.

thanks

p.s. I found this twitter helpful and will use as evidence https://twitter.com/amateursuman/status/911281089087442946. and there is a point to be made about the left arrow direct you to the filter

This post has been edited by phodges: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 06:40
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post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 21:47
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cp8759
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 22:38
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Let's see your video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 22:42
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This is one where if you get the right adjudicator there's a chance but they are in the minority and we usually recommend paying the discount. If you came out a side road just before the junction that is also a difference.

This one is the most detailed of recent allowed appeals I can see:

----------

Case reference 2190285105
Appellant John Nicholas Sutton
Authority London Borough of Lambeth
VRM X274XPH
PCN Details
PCN LJ1055316A
Contravention date 06 Jan 2019
Contravention time 11:42:00
Contravention location Clapham Park Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Being in a bus lane
Referral date
Decision Date 22 Aug 2019
Adjudicator Monica Hillen
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction

Mr Sutton attended the appeal hearing today. He appeals against the Penalty Charge Notice issued for entering the bus lane in Clapham Park Road on 6 January 2019 at 11.42

Mr Sutton is not familiar with the junction and does not know the road layout. He approached the junction and wanted to make a left turn. He crossed over the solid white line to do so to make the left turn. The CCTV shows there are no road surface signs in the left lane directing drivers of motor vehicles to drive straight ahead and moreover no road surface turn left arrow. The road surface has clearly been altered since the library pictures were taken.

The bus lane is only some 70 meters in length and there is no evidence from the Enforcement Authority to show drivers are advised to go straight ahead in order to turn left. The signage at this junction is wholly inadequate for drivers who are not familiar with the area. Adjudicators from this Tribunal have in a number of cases over a few years commented on the lack of clear signage for drivers of motor vehicles. The signs on the traffic lights showing the bus sign is too small and by the time the driver can read the sign they cannot manoeuvre themselves out of the position they find themselves in as they are at the junction and in the bus lane.

Whilst this was a bus lane and marked as such there was insufficient signage to allow the motorist to make a legal left turn.

Previous Adjudicator have found the following;

“I recognise that this bus lane is correctly marked and signed but the road layout at this spot is in my view confusing the motorist it seems to me being encouraged by it to approach the junction in the bus lane in order to turn left at it and in the absence of additional signage being posted - on, for example, the traffic island at the junction - I am not satisfied that adequate warning is given to the motorist that they should not pass to the left of the traffic island to turn left.

I find for this reason that the contravention has not been proved.”

No improvement to the signage or additional signage appears to have been made.

On the evidence I find there was no contravention. The Enforcement Authority have failed to prove the case to the required standard. The appeal is refused.
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phodges
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 06:53
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Here is link to the video - https://pcnevidence.lambeth.gov.uk/pcnonlin...e=video%2Fx-flv

Perfect - many thanks. I did a pretty thorough search of the forum and missed that.
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cp8759
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 09:28
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QUOTE (phodges @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 07:53) *

That won't work, you need to downlod the video and re-post it on a video sharing site like youtube or similar.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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phodges
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 15:11
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ok. thanks
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 20:39
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OP-----good for you---go for it!

However you are dealing with the biggest "earner" of any London Borough--more money generated here than any other restriction in the capital.

The Council have acted on every successful appeal and fine tuned the lines and signs accordingly so they seem to comply.

Where difficult appeals have arisen the Council has fielded senior staff, engineers and traffic signs professionals at Tribunal-- that's how much they value their "cash cow".

Members on this forum have looked at this restriction ad infinitum with very limited success. The successful case already posted is by an adjudicator, dear to our hearts, but I am afraid he is a minority view.

Last time I posted on this restriction I argued that there might be leverage in the road markings relating to the pedestrian crossing---no zig zags. That might be an avenue to explore but my bottom line--you've guessed it already--is settle at the discount.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:35
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:39) *
The successful case already posted is by an adjudicator, dear to our hearts, but I am afraid he is a minority view.



The case I posted is by Monica Hillen, not a he I think, so there are a few who have upheld appeals. But I agree that the discount is best, not least not to waste time on it.
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phodges
post Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 11:10
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I have now had the councils rebuttal on this PCN. Letter attached. I am paying the discount but still intend to proceed to challenge.
I will be cited two key points...
1. I am a qualified advanced motorist...so I know how to read road signs
2. the case in January that the adjudicator feel in favour of the motorist

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Steve_999
post Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 11:20
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QUOTE (phodges @ Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 12:10) *
I have now had the councils rebuttal on this PCN. Letter attached. I am paying the discount but still intend to proceed to challenge.
I will be cited two key points...
1. I am a qualified advanced motorist...so I know how to read road signs
2. the case in January that the adjudicator feel in favour of the motorist


Once you pay, the Council will consider the matter closed. You will have nowhere to make a challenge.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 11:23
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Paying the PCN closes the case. If you do manage to reopen it the full £130 will be in play.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 16:53
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QUOTE (phodges @ Sat, 18 Jul 2020 - 12:10) *
1. I am a qualified advanced motorist...so I know how to read road signs
2. the case in January that the adjudicator feel in favour of the motorist

If you haven't paid already we can probably strengthen that quite a lot, but if you've paid it's game over.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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reca
post Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 17:04
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you serve a freedom of information request on the council asking for all ALLOWED appeals for this bus lane for the last say 10 years.

They may delay. Which is a pain.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 18:08
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QUOTE (reca @ Sun, 19 Jul 2020 - 18:04) *
you serve a freedom of information request on the council asking for all ALLOWED appeals for this bus lane for the last say 10 years.

They may delay. Which is a pain.

You'll find section 21 of the FOIA provides an absolute exemption.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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phodges
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 14:37
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I have received response from Lambeth saying I can't appeal because I have paid the fine. I don't believe this is the case and intend to proceed.
Attached is the letter from Lambeth
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John U.K.
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 14:56
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QUOTE
I have received response from Lambeth saying I can't appeal because I have paid the fine. I don't believe this is the case and intend to proceed.
Attached is the letter from Lambeth


See post #12.
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phodges
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 15:46
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Thanks - but I have taken this approach before. If you can track the case on the forum it was back in 2014 on a bus lane appeal, Vastern Road in Reading...

RG8429521A
I am writing in response to your letter of 18th August rejecting my representation. I have now paid the Penalty Charge under duress. Your response did not directly address the points of mitigation in my letter of 5th July or provide me with the information to enable me to make full representation. However, the process as described in your letter gives me no other course to avoid a higher charge.
Whilst paying the PCN, I do intend to appeal to the adjudicator and therefore still need to receive the information I asked for.
From my letter of 5th July - “If my explanation is not acceptable, then I would want to support my case by having details of the road layout and signage. I would need a plan of the layout between the two roundabouts and photos of all the relevant signs.” After taking advice, it has been explained to me that I need to also request a copy of the Traffic Order.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 16:41
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You can't avoid the full penalty if you appeal and lose.

In any case with London bus lanes there is a second enforcement stage with the council before the tribunal. I don't see how you can force the council to issue an EN, which is the only way you'd have recourse to the tribunal.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 16:41
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 17:08
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QUOTE (phodges @ Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 16:46) *
Thanks - but I have taken this approach before.

We have seen a few instances where a council will offer to refund the amount paid and continue the enforcement process to give you access to the tribunal, however you cannot force the council to do this. The fact that you got lucky in the past is neither here nor there, there is nothing at all you can do to force the council to exercise discretion in this way. The council is totally within the law in saying thank you for the £65 and goodbye, which is exactly what it has done.

You also have to consider that the appeals system is in place for those who want to challenge a PCN, and the discount is there as an inducement for those who accept liability straight away as this obviously saves the council from having to spend resources dealing with representations and tribunal appeals. If there were no such incentive to settle early, everybody would appeal everything and the tribunal would go from handling a few tens of thousands of cases a year, to over 8 million.

In short, while you might get lucky in persuading a council to re-open a case, as a general rule once you pay it's game over. There is nothing you can do now.


This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 17:10


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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