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Covid-19 PCN with late/no notice to driver., Newham PCN, Covid-19
diaspora85
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 00:41
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Hi All,

Sorry if this is posted in wrong place I'm totally confused.
Need some advice please, received two PCN within Newham dated 31/05 and 1/06 but issued for contravention code 165 (dedicated disabled bay), outside of residential parking operation times (0800 - 1830 Mon to Sat) according to Newham's website all parking enforcement was suspended including car compound only dangerously parked or vehicles causing an obstruction would be relocated. The issue I have is I'm keyworker with a disabled son that still had to attend school Mondays to Fridays. As lockdown began my son was issued his first blue badge vaild from 27/03. I had not been able to even start my application nor would it have been processed in time. As I discovered via my research into the process of getting a disabled parking permit, takes six months or longer according to Newham's own website. Firstly you must successfully apply and be issued a disabled parking bay first before applying for the permit itself. I understand that disabled resident bays may be in operation all the time normally, but I'm not even sure the bay in which I parked is even an active disabled resident parking bay. As there are no fully visible road markings including "disabled" wording or designated box markings. On top of this its been 30 days and I still have not received my notice to driver.

So my questions are how should I proceed?
and what should I be saying?
Can it be voided due to breach of an overlapped time period of issuing notice to driver?
I dunno please just help I don't have £260 going spare.
Thank you


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post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 00:41
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Incandescent
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 07:54
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Post up at least one of the PCNs if its the same location for both. Post all sides with PCN Number and car details blanked-out. Leave everything else in. Also post a GSV link to the location and tell us exactly where you parked.
Have you submitted any informal representations ? The discount option has now gone, so it's a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, the cost is the same.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:11
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OP, taking these issues separately:
1. The PCNs;
2. Obtaining a Blue Badge and related matters.

1. If you have received PCNs on your car then you must deal with them. You make no mention of having challenged them and as their respective 28-day periods have elapsed the penalties in both cases are £130 and the next stage of enforcement is for Notices to Owner to be issued - not notice to driver, this term refers to non-parking matters - to the registered keeper. So:
Who is the registered keeper;
Are their details current with DVLA;
Are they at this address at present and able to handle correspondence?

Although you could still challenge until NTOs are issued, I think this would just confuse matters.

So, pl confirm the above and then we can move on with subsequent steps.

Nothing you've posted suggests that 'it's a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, the cost is the same.' because we're not at this stage.

2. It appears that you are confusing two issues: applying for a Blue Badge and making an application to the local authority to have an enforceable parking place located outside your house for your own use and being issued with a unique permit for this purpose.

Two totally different matters, but with a slight overlap.

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diaspora85
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 14:52
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Hey, thanks for the replies.

Yes maybe I'm confusing the matter of PCN with permits/bays issuement.

I have not taken any action as of yet. When I go online I can still make the first represention. Both PCNs were issued at same location without me moving my car and coming back. I will have to work out how too post the photos. talk soon.


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Neil B
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 18:01
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QUOTE (diaspora85 @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 15:52) *
I will have to work out how too post the photos. talk soon.

Just use an external image hosting site like imgbb, imgur or flickr. I use the latter.
And paste the BB codes directly into a reply here.

It's easier than it sounds and you can ask us to help if you get stuck.

'GSV link' means just to find the location on Google, open the map, go into streetview (little yellow jelly baby) and post a link to the view of the exact spot.
(other than Newham you haven't told us it yet?)

Also post the council evidence images (from the PCN details on their website)


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Incandescent
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 21:45
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If you have two PCNs but the car wasn't moved between getting the first one and the second, then you need to submit reps for the 2nd one on the basis of continuous contravention; you can't be penalised twice for a single offence.
However, the period for submitting informal reps to the PCNs has passed, and the next document is sent by post, the Notice to Owner, (NtO); you'll get two of these. The name and address for the council to use is taken from the V5C record held by the DVLA. Are you the owner and is the V5C in your name and address ? This is a very important question

Please provide the requested PCN documentation asap, and a GSV link too.

The NtOs cannot be issued until a minimum period of 28 days has elapsed from the PCN date, but the council then can take up to 6 months to issue them, although that would be disgraceful, and grounds for an appeal on its own. Is there any reason why you have not submitted any representations to the PCNs ? These would be informal reps, but the council response is always useful when preparing formal reps to a NtO. The Covid-19 crisis may delay issue of the NtOs.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 21:47
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diaspora85
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 20:40
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 19:01) *
QUOTE (diaspora85 @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 15:52) *
I will have to work out how too post the photos. talk soon.

Just use an external image hosting site like imgbb, imgur or flickr. I use the latter.
And paste the BB codes directly into a reply here.

It's easier than it sounds and you can ask us to help if you get stuck.

'GSV link' means just to find the location on Google, open the map, go into streetview (little yellow jelly baby) and post a link to the view of the exact spot.
(other than Newham you haven't told us it yet?)

Also post the council evidence images (from the PCN details on their website)



GSV link - GSV link


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diaspora85
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:17
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PCN 1



wont let me upload no more pics as my post merges with the previous... not sure what to do? advice please



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 09:11) *
OP, taking these issues separately:
1. The PCNs;
2. Obtaining a Blue Badge and related matters.

1. If you have received PCNs on your car then you must deal with them. You make no mention of having challenged them and as their respective 28-day periods have elapsed the penalties in both cases are £130 and the next stage of enforcement is for Notices to Owner to be issued - not notice to driver, this term refers to non-parking matters - to the registered keeper. So:
Who is the registered keeper;
Are their details current with DVLA;
Are they at this address at present and able to handle correspondence?

Although you could still challenge until NTOs are issued, I think this would just confuse matters.

So, pl confirm the above and then we can move on with subsequent steps.

Nothing you've posted suggests that 'it's a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, the cost is the same.' because we're not at this stage.

2. It appears that you are confusing two issues: applying for a Blue Badge and making an application to the local authority to have an enforceable parking place located outside your house for your own use and being issued with a unique permit for this purpose.

Two totally different matters, but with a slight overlap.



To answer your question, the registered keepers details are currently with DVLA and yes they can handle correspondences.

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:54) *
Post up at least one of the PCNs if its the same location for both. Post all sides with PCN Number and car details blanked-out. Leave everything else in. Also post a GSV link to the location and tell us exactly where you parked.
Have you submitted any informal representations ? The discount option has now gone, so it's a no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, the cost is the same.



No informal representation has been given. Should I still do that even though the time has passed?

This post has been edited by diaspora85: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:13


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Steve_999
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:22
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Use an external web site to host images (such as https://imgbb.com/) and copy the BB link it provides into your post.
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diaspora85
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 21:52
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 22:45) *
If you have two PCNs but the car wasn't moved between getting the first one and the second, then you need to submit reps for the 2nd one on the basis of continuous contravention; you can't be penalised twice for a single offence.
However, the period for submitting informal reps to the PCNs has passed, and the next document is sent by post, the Notice to Owner, (NtO); you'll get two of these. The name and address for the council to use is taken from the V5C record held by the DVLA. Are you the owner and is the V5C in your name and address ? This is a very important question

Please provide the requested PCN documentation asap, and a GSV link too.

The NtOs cannot be issued until a minimum period of 28 days has elapsed from the PCN date, but the council then can take up to 6 months to issue them, although that would be disgraceful, and grounds for an appeal on its own. Is there any reason why you have not submitted any representations to the PCNs ? These would be informal reps, but the council response is always useful when preparing formal reps to a NtO. The Covid-19 crisis may delay issue of the NtOs.



No the car was not moved, the PCNs are 13 hours apart. Yes im the owner and my details are on the V5C. There is no reason apart from being fully occupied with work and caring for two under 6s one of which has disabilities, alone. Im sorry if i did not follow what i should of done. I was thinking of appealing them as I thought it had to be a mistake given parking enforcement was suspended, i was just unsure what to say. I even went online and checked this was still the case and tried to talk to someone from newham via their online chat service, but it was unavailable.

PCN 2

https://ibb.co/BBzMLPN
https://ibb.co/3z0xWbm
https://ibb.co/28jSdwt
https://ibb.co/h7TpSJp
https://ibb.co/5RTMhXz
https://ibb.co/f8rhhvj
https://ibb.co/HhDKdcr
https://ibb.co/vXMGDJ4
https://ibb.co/VTcWc6y
https://ibb.co/ftWGDbm
https://ibb.co/DWRKyc7
https://ibb.co/B6nd8dv
https://ibb.co/j38v2Rz
https://ibb.co/ZTcvf45
https://ibb.co/JKCyQ63
https://ibb.co/cYqJFH4


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diaspora85
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 22:03
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This is the location of both PCNs, this photo was taken when I first found the one window wallet with both PCNs within. I moved my car so that i could show the floor markings and both signage.

https://ibb.co/MfsvnxQ
https://ibb.co/chh3Gpv
https://ibb.co/Qn9FvGy
https://ibb.co/wWNyDNq
https://ibb.co/b5Wgbr3


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cp8759
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 22:12
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Sorry but if your son had a BB issued on 27 March, why was this not on display?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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diaspora85
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 22:22
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PCN 1 Details

https://ibb.co/WKY6BL6
https://ibb.co/p4tnbHS

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 23:12) *
Sorry but if your son had a BB issued on 27 March, why was this not on display?



The car was parked on the street next to where i live all weekend (about 70 yards away), I did not want to leave the BB on display just in case the car was broken into, plus I thought parking enforcement was suspended due to covid. My actual window permit would of allowed the car to parked on that street.

PCN 2 details

https://ibb.co/F5xZMVr
https://ibb.co/WPFhVL6


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diaspora85
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 08:16
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Good morning all,

checked my mail this morning to find both NTO.

four pages for each NTO, ive only uploaded links to the whole of one and just the first page of the other as remaining pages are the same.

https://ibb.co/zRdwvyt
https://ibb.co/hB6w81x
https://ibb.co/LJPC0QB
https://ibb.co/QQSjdD6
https://ibb.co/3FYQrFw

thank you for all the help, it is very much appreciated.


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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 08:45
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So basically you could have legally parked had you displayed the BB you say you had, but you didn't want to display it in case it got stolen? I'm sorry but this is a very poor excuse and it's far better not to mention it to anyone.

Your best bet would be to send photos of the blue badge, state that it was unfortunate that it wasn't displayed but please would they exercise discretion to cancel on this occasion.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:06
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OP, pl promise me you won't post any more photos of the car ....!

Can we pl go back to basics.

You parked in a location marked with the required parking place markings.

You displayed what and where?

The traffic sign states: Disabled Resident Permit Holders Only PS

The traffic sign does not include the logo for disabled badge holders. Therefore the parking place has NOTHING to do with being disabled, whatever such a broad term might mean, or holding a blue badge. This is why there should NOT be a road marking 'DISABLED'. The parking place is for a type of permit holder.

The parking place may be used only by???

And therein lies the issue for me.

For me, it is wholly irrelevant that the SoS might have approved the sign because they also knew what the restriction was and what the authority wanted to convey. The SoS did not know what I suspect is the case which is that the PS permits issued to residents are not on the face of them clear as to whether holding one entitles the driver to park where the 'permit identifier' states PS.

The regulations (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made) state at item 2 in the Part 4 sign table that such a parking place:

Must display the 'P' on a plate with a white background;
A type or types of user may be included and where the user is a type of permit holder a permit identifier may be used.
A parking place identifier or zone identifier may be included.

Hence why I want to see what you displayed. This is the starting point for me.

I won't branch into the 'if you tell us A, then this applies' because I prefer just to get the facts.
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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:47
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 11:06) *
The traffic sign does not include the logo for disabled badge holders. Therefore the parking place has NOTHING to do with being disabled, whatever such a broad term might mean, or holding a blue badge. This is why there should NOT be a road marking 'DISABLED'. The parking place is for a type of permit holder.

The way I read the sign, anyone with a PS permit can park there as long as they also have a blue badge. I have no idea what the intention of the sign is, but if it's anything other than that, it fails the LATOR test.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 16:52
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The way I read the sign, anyone with a PS permit can park there as long as they also have a blue badge. I have no idea what the intention of the sign is, but if it's anything other than that, it fails the LATOR test.

And if someone of cp's knowledge misunderstands the meaning, which IMO they have, then what hope for the average motorist?

I again refer to the Schedule, the part 5 sign table to which gives at item 4 the 'disabled' logo which may be used with the Part 4 sign.

It hasn't been, therefore NONE OF THE FOLLOWING may be used on the sign:

1. “Disabled badge holders”;
2. “Disabled badge holders only”;
3. “Disabled badge holders only at all times”;
4. “Disabled badge holder” and a permit identifier; or
5. “Disabled badge holder only” and a permit identifier

I refer to no. 5. A sign may use the wheelchair logo with 'disabled badge holder only' and a permit identifier. Frankly, this should be used in this case subject to the permit identifier being unique.

To me the wording here is important: 'Disabled badge holder only' and a permit identifier.

Therefore, 'Disabled badge holder' is a type of user, not a permit identifier.

So, what is a 'Disabled Resident Permit holder'? Surely this must be a type of user.

So, what is PS in the context of the sign? Surely PS is a zone, not a permit identifier. (hence why I think cp's assessment cannot be correct: the holder of any permit for zone PS?)

So what's left is types of users.

So, if the holder of a res permit for zone PS who also happens to be disabled and holds a blue badge reads the sign, are they entitled to park?

A meaning as clear as mud from the motorist's perspective.

OP, what did you display and where?

IMO, your reps must attempt to elicit from the council exactly what the sign is supposed to mean from their perspective. As the sign is not specified within the regulations they must have obtained authorisation from the Secretary of State. Should they reject your reps then they must supply a copy of such authorisation AND the council's application on which it was based.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 16:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 21:18
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I'm stuck in the middle. The sign says disabled permit holders and then PS So could it be argued that as your child is disabled and you hols a permit parking was legal? a stretch, but maybe but whatever the permit/zone identifier is not clear so nor is the sign.

The second PCN will almost certainly be cancelled as a continuous contravention


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Neil B
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 21:31
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Let me clarify.
Newham's odd and, almost unique*, rule is >

That these bays are for the use of people who hold a 'disabled resident parking permit' for the zone in which they are located.

We've seen it a load of times.

I agree the sign doesn't explain btw

* I seem to recall the other might be Lewisham? A tribunal case relevant? Certainly South London somewhere..

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 21:34


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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