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PCN Pay & Display
janeta33
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:52
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Hi,

I got a PCN for parking in a pay & display bay without a valid ticket. However, when I went to purchase the ticket the meter stated that the P&D was only in operation between 8am - 6pm, so I didn't think I needed a ticket. The time on the PCN is 7.23pm. I took a photo of the meter when I got the ticket and thought it would be a straightforward appeal. My appeal (which included a photo of the meter) was rejected. The rejection email seemed like it was generic and gave the reason;

"The Civil Enforcement's notes, made when issuing you PCN, state that you were no displaying a Pay & Display ticket. Even if you buy a ticket, it is not permitted to park without displaying it. I note your comments, however, you are required to make payment for parking between the hours of 8am and 8pm seven days a week"

I assume what's happened is that the parking times have been changed but the signage on meters haven't been. I'm thinking of appealing to the adjudicator and was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience and/or has any advice?

Thanks

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post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:52
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:00
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Post the PCN and council photos


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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:13
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The parking bay signs don't give times - or at least not last year - so if the same this should be a slam dunk win for you:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4851016,-2....6384!8i8192

PCN is in #1. Get council pics and post. If you have trouble PM me the car reg and PCN number.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:18
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:36
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This looks like a CEO error, I wonder how many incorrect PCNs he's issued. Post up the photos or PM the PCN details to me and stamfordman and we'll do it for you.


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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:53
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The city centre CPZ runs until 8pm but Cornell Street is outside of this. It is in another CPZ as there is an entry at the end of the street and as of July last year the hours were 6pm:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4855527,-2....6384!8i8192

So CEO looks to be confused about where they were.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 11:36
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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 12:29
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Selection of pics - not sure why wheel pics were taken given no P&D ticket. CEO seems to have gone rogue.

I would email parking department saying:

I am confused by your rejection to my challenge to PCN no xxxxx as Cornell Street is not in the city centre controlled zone and pay and display parking ends in Cornell Street at 6pm, but the PCN was issued at 7.23pm. This appears to be a mistake by your CEO - please would you look into it.

Note that the next procedural step is to wait for a notice to owner and make formal reps, not an appeal to the adjudicator. But if this is a parking place that ends at 6pm then it's a silly mistake and you may as well head it off now. One way to check is to go back and see what those signs say at the entrance to the street. But in any case you are entitled to rely in the details on the machine as entry signs do not control parking bays but the times are often the same as in Manchester.






This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 12:51
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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:02
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??

OP, I have the following facts and observations which together might explain matters:

GSV shows four separate parking places in Connell, 2 with arrows to the right, one to the left and one without a traffic sign.

But GSV does not show a P&D m/c..it has to be between the left and right facing arrows - apparently behind the tree, but whichever viewpoint I use I cannot see a machine;

Your close-up coincidentally has the hours of the adjacent CPZ AND 'No return within 2 hours', but this is not mentioned on the traffic sign which applies to your location;

Which leads me to ask....where was the m/c which you used and photographed?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:17
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The machine was there in 2018 - maybe was vandalised and now back again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4851755,-2....3312!8i6656

This is the CPZ order - may not be current though but specifies 8am-6pm:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...e5rVo-deCn15znC

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:24
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janeta33
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:30
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Thanks everyone, some really useful advice. I'll wait for the notice to owner and make formal representation.

Stanfordman - thank you so much for helping post the photos on here and your advice.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:34
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Not so fast - where was the P&D machine?

And crucially - are you the registered keeper of the car and if so is the V5C document up to date with your current address?

If it were me I'd email them now if it's certain it's their mistake.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:37
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We have had this before in Manchester. The sign says P&D at machine and points to a machine that is not there.

The CPZ is a red herring so forget it. A CPZ controls the times of yellow line restrictions, it would need to be a P&D zone for every bay in the zone to have the same time limits as specified on an entrance sign. But it is not a P&D zone

So OP where was the machine you posted a photo of?


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hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:46
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Indeed.

So to add to my obs, we have a surfeit of out of date, contradictory and potentially incomplete data..

OP, over to you.
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janeta33
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 17:36
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I tried to use google maps to locate the meter but it must have been recently installed. I drove back to the location and took the below (also have a video but couldn't upload). The meter is on Cornell Street, near the parking bays.



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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 17:49
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QUOTE (janeta33 @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 18:36) *
I tried to use google maps to locate the meter but it must have been recently installed. I drove back to the location and took the below (also have a video but couldn't upload). The meter is on Cornell Street, near the parking bays.



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That figures, is that the one you photographed?


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janeta33
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 20:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 18:49) *
That figures, is that the one you photographed?


Yeah that's the one I photographed
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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 21:31
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Did you note the zone entry times at the start of the road? They do indicate the pay and display times and in fact are the only times you'll see in much of Manchester unless you park and go look at a machine, or consult the council's website or the paybyphone app in some places, as the bay signs just say 'pay at machine'.

The CPZ order I posted says the P&D ends at 6pm. As I said, I would simply send them what I suggested, or if you wait for the NTO you need to check keeper details are up to date.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 21:36
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 21:39
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 22:31) *
Did you note the zone entry times at the start of the road? They do indicate the pay and display times and in fact are the only times you'll see in much of Manchester unless you park and go look at a machine, or consult the council's website or the paybyphone app in some places, as the bay signs just say 'pay at machine'.

The CPZ order I posted says the P&D ends at 6pm. As I said, I would simply send them what I suggested, or if you wait for the NTO you need to check keeper details ate up to date.


I have not checked the order but a CPZ cannot control parking bays Look to the central element of the sign ( The no waiting roundel) But regardless i can confirm from personal experience that P&D parking in Manchester ends at 6pm


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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 21:55
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 22:39) *
I have not checked the order but a CPZ cannot control parking bays Look to the central element of the sign ( The no waiting roundel) But regardless i can confirm from personal experience that P&D parking in Manchester ends at 6pm


We've discussed this before - CPZ orders such as this consolidate all the waiting restrictions in the zone in one order, and I only said the times indicate (not control) the P&D bays. In practice councils tend to use these orders to streamline the times in one order and the lack of bay sign times in Manchester means that the CPZ signs are at least giving you information, and councils tend to talk about controlled parking zones as if they apply to P&D as well as yellow lines.

In fact the Manchester central zone ends at 8pm which is the point here - the OP is just outside this in the Ancoats CPZ which ends at 6pm if the machine and order are accurate. Referring the council to the error by the CEO about the zone makes sense to me.


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janeta33
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:17
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Again thanks all. I'll email them with the as Stamfordman has advised and see what they come back with. Registered keeper details are up to date so in I have to wait for NTO then those details are correct. Will post an updated if/when they respond to my email.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 09:34
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OP, are you the registered keeper of the car, are your details current with DVLA and are you able to manage correspondence delivered to this address?

If you must write back, then I suggest the following ...my tried and trusted approach of:

What you did;
What you saw;
How you interpreted what you saw;
What actions you took.

Dear *** (whoever signed your letter),
PCN *********, dated *******

I refer to the above, my challenge and your response dated **** rejecting the same.

I regret to inform you that you and at least one CEO are misinformed as regards the parking restrictions in Connell Street. This naturally raises very serious wider issues regarding how many other PCNs have been issued unlawfully and at present I will leave this with the council to resolve, my concern being the above PCN.

At *** on *** I parked my car as can be seen in the council's evidence. I consulted the applicable traffic sign which directed me to a P&D machine for details of charging hours and tariffs. I complied with the conditions displayed and therefore the council issued a PCN in error.

The regulatory position as regards designated parking places in Connell Street is as follows:

Traffic signs indicating the restriction specified at item 7 to Sign Table 4 to Schedule 4 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regs have been placed within each parking place;
These convey the restriction that payment conditions apply and that a ticket must be displayed and also indicate the location of the applicable machine.
The machine specifies the times during which payment is required and the tariff.
There is only one machine which states clearly that payment is required between the hours of ****.
This is contrary to your statement that payment is required between the hours of ***** which formed the basis of your rejection.
I enclosed a photo of these times with my challenge, however you clearly preferred the record of the CEO.
On receipt of your rejection, I revisited the site on the basis that perhaps I had misread something and that you were correct.
I enclose a set of photos showing the machine, its relevance as regards my parking place and the payment conditions.
I repeat, the payment hours stated clearly on the machine and the only times which apply are *****.

For your information, I have looked at the history of this site. At various times over the last 3 years there has and has not been a machine in situ, its presence changing almost as regularly as the seasons. It also appears that during this period the waiting restrictions in the road have changed - these have no legal effect as regards parking places, but might explain the council's current dilemma.

Today there is a machine in situ and it states times which are not consistent with the waiting restrictions which suggests that it has been shipped-in from another location and installed without the necessary checks having been made regarding its hours and the traffic signs which apply.

I expect confirmation that my PCN has been cancelled as no parking charge was due at the time of the contravention. I would also expect the council to visit this site and regularise the situation.

Regards,
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