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police 0460 code, due care
billyg48
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 20:30
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hello everyone. i have often popped into and out of this forum and i amazed at the knowledge base on here.
So i thought i would see if anyone can give me any info on this please?
Yesterday my two duaghters where out and about in their cars aroun my local area, cheshire. while turning right off a b road onto a single track rd the first one turned in and wiated for her sister to also turn into the road. aA soon as the second daughter turned the corner they continued along and a police motorbike turned in and followed them and made them stop.
The road they turned off is a 60mph limit and bends around to the left just before their turn, Not a very sharp bend and has fair visibility.
The copper alledges that the second car that turned right had cut him up forcing him to use the ABS to slow/stop him.
Neither of the drivers seen him oncoming before the turn. He says he had his blue lights on also and was very intimidating to them.
Anyway daughter gets a ticket for the above 0460code and the words "due care" scribbled on it. BUT the road they where on and had turned off from is totally diffeerent from what he put on the ticket. That road is abot a mile away from the stop.
Can anyone say if this ticket has any legal standing or not ? My duaghter is red with rage about being stopped and also the wrong info.
Any help will be much appreciated. thanks. billy
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post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 20:30
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Jlc
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 20:33
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QUOTE (billyg48 @ Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 21:30) *
Can anyone say if this ticket has any legal standing or not ?

I presume it's a Traffic Offence Report?

QUOTE (billyg48 @ Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 21:30) *
My daughter is red with rage about being stopped and also the wrong info.

She hasn't been disadvantaged by the 'error' as she was stopped at the time.

She'll have to wait and see what turns up in the post next.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

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southpaw82
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 20:34
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QUOTE (billyg48 @ Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 21:30) *
Can anyone say if this ticket has any legal standing or not ?

What is the “ticket”? A traffic offence report? A fixed penalty notice? A conditional offer of a fixed penalty?

In any case, if she ignores the “ticket” the police are likely to prosecute her. The wrong road is no defence.



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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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mickR
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 21:00
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Pleasr post the GSV of the location.
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Logician
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 23:39
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Your daughter may be offered a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points or a course which would avoid points.

Unless she has dash cam footage that supports her case, she would be ill-advised to go to court over this, she would have a difficult time convincing the court that she was right and the officer was wrong.


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Fredd
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 06:35
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 00:39) *
Unless she has dash cam footage that supports her case, she would be ill-advised to go to court over this, she would have a difficult time convincing the court that she was right and the officer was wrong.

Bearing in mind that it's likely that there's video from a police motorcycle on a blue light run, if the OP's daughter really is convinced of her case.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 07:53
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QUOTE (billyg48 @ Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 21:30) *
My duaghter is red with rage about being stopped and also the wrong info.

A somewhat disproportionate response under the circumstances I’d suggest.

If the police bike was right behind her as she turned in it does indeed suggest he was coming the other way to be given way to at the time, otherwise he wouldn’t have been right behind her as she turned?


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billyg48
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:26
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hi, yes it was a Traffic Offence Report. He said he had blue lights on, but 4 people in two cars never seen him ,

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The Rookie
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:37
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The fact they didn’t see him doesn’t mean he wasn’t there to be seen.

Consider whether it’s likely he’s making it up and why he would do that, versus how likely it is his version is true and the people in the cars just didn’t see him while focusing on their journey.

As requested, a GSV location please, that means we can get an idea of the views available.


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4hS6TcBkX
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:43
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Here's the GSV, the two vehicles turned right from Guests Slack to Dark Ln.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2617612,-2....3312!8i6656

Possible the police vehicle was approaching from Cooks Hill, hence being "behind them"?

This post has been edited by 4hS6TcBkX: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:44
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666
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:59
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"Blue lights" suggest he was responding to an urgent call. But he took time to divert and deal with a minor traffic offence. Something sounds wrong.
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:08
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QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:59) *
"Blue lights" suggest he was responding to an urgent call. But he took time to divert and deal with a minor traffic offence. Something sounds wrong.

Or the call got cancelled or downgraded, or someone else got there first, or he was familiarising himself with the capabilities of the vehicle, or he hadn't done a blue light run for a while and he was just honing his skills, the possibilities are almost endless...


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Fredd
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:39
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:37) *
The fact they didn’t see him doesn’t mean he wasn’t there to be seen.

Consider whether it’s likely he’s making it up and why he would do that, versus how likely it is his version is true and the people in the cars just didn’t see him while focusing on their journey.

People here can be very quick to assume that the civilian is guilty of careless driving, can't they? It's entirely possible for the motorcycle to theoretically be "there to be seen" but being so far off and travelling so much faster than a normal driver would expect that they didn't see them. A jury found this way in a possibly similar case earlier this year, you may recall.


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Jlc
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 11:38
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See what arrives first.

If it's careless, then the prosecution would have to show the standard of driving fell below that expected of a safe and competent driver.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 13:59
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 11:39) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:37) *
The fact they didn’t see him doesn’t mean he wasn’t there to be seen.

Consider whether it’s likely he’s making it up and why he would do that, versus how likely it is his version is true and the people in the cars just didn’t see him while focusing on their journey.

People here can be very quick to assume that the civilian is guilty of careless driving, can't they?.

I thought I’d been very careful not to imply that, but if it came across that way it wasn’t intended. Of course if the bike was arriving much faster than a ‘careful and competent’ driver would expect then DWDCA shouldn’t be made out.


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baroudeur
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 14:54
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QUOTE (4hS6TcBkX @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 09:43) *
Here's the GSV, the two vehicles turned right from Guests Slack to Dark Ln.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2617612,-2....3312!8i6656

Possible the police vehicle was approaching from Cooks Hill, hence being "behind them"?



If the car(s) turned right on to Dark Lane from the right hand side of the island the driver's view of traffic coming over the brow would have been restriced by the angle. If trhe police bike was at speed then quite possibly it wasn't in view when the turn commenced and the police bike would very quickly have been up the boot of the car.

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The Rookie
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 17:03
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Ok so the slight crest and curve will tend to mask oncoming vehicles until they are relatively close to.


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mickR
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:33
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So maybe plod tanking it on his bike over a bilnd brow on a bend comes across a car turning across him. Has to brake hard sh!ts himself a bit and decides the emergency he was on now isnt an emergency after all so he can go and check out reprimand the girls rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 11:08) *
QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:59) *
"Blue lights" suggest he was responding to an urgent call. But he took time to divert and deal with a minor traffic offence. Something sounds wrong.

Or the call got cancelled or downgraded, or someone else got there first, or he was familiarising himself with the capabilities of the vehicle, or he hadn't done a blue light run for a while and he was just honing his skills, the possibilities are almost endless...

Blue lights on a B road approaching a junction with what appears to be limited vision, i would suggest he need to hone them a bit more.
Direction of Approach from the nice straight of Norley road shows warning signs of cross roads and S bend directly before the brow and right bend. Not the best conmination of road layout for a bike at any speed. OP mentions blue lights but was he on twos as well??

This post has been edited by mickR: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 08:40
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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 13:15
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We know the road layout, we know the ‘defence’ version and we have the reported version from the officer, we don’t know what any camera footage will show.

If a course is offered it would be a gamble to progress this to court, if a fixed penalty is offered less so, so I’d suggest seeing what the Police propose before decking on a course of action.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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billyg48
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 13:43
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hi, thanks for the replies. As one or two have suggested i thought the same about his speed entering the bend and the cars caught him out, But being a police driver he aint going to admit that is he ?. The copper could have used discretion and seeing the state she was in at the time i think a lesson would have been learnt, but he continued to bully her and talk to her in an inappropriate manner. (according to her sister) they are 25`26 year olds. One of my thoughts was that he was just sitting in the little lane opposite and decided to up his quota for the day, cynical i know but thats how i feel.
The black box fitted in the car shows the driver had a score of 8 out of 10 for driving that day. Also the copper also said he had no video evidence to show them as they asked to see it.
I have also told her to wait and see what the post brings.
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