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Barnet PCN for turning right, turning right from Finchley Rd onto Rodborough Rd NW11
Lara G
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 21:19
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Hi.
I'm wondering if anyone can help me.
I received a PCN from Barnet for turning right from Finchley Road onto Rodborough Road, London NW11.
I was not aware I could not turn right - the road markings did not show this and in fact warned pedestrians to look right before crossing.
There were 2 no right turn' signs which I did not see due to their bad positions and angles.
There was a 'no entry sign on the bollard but that could have been just for the other side of the road.
I've attached a picture here of the evidence.
Is it worth paying £65 now or trying to fight it?
Isn't there some legislation that says a road has to have a 'no entry' sign on both sides of it so that it's clear you can't enter?

Apparently, the council is making tons of money from issuing fines at this spot, due to unclear signage.

Thank you,

Lara G
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post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 21:19
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 21:50
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here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5710556,-0....6384!8i8192

One we've seen a few times. I don't think there's much hope as Barnet has fixed a flaw in its PCNs, but post all the PCN. If you PM me the car reg and PCN number I'll post the video.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

this case has a long post about signage by Mr Mustard at the end - he'll know what's what here.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...124117&st=0

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 21:52
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 09:55
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From GSV, the positioning of the signs is blatantly wrong: you cannot contravene a sign that you have not reached, let alone passed.

Post up all of the PCN, and send the PCN details to me or stamfordman so we can get the video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Lara G
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 12:24
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PCN number AG37059746
VRM LS04XLD
Date of contravention 11/06/2020 15:54

Street Finchley Road into Rodborough Road (NW11)
Location 11CUV1
Contravention Code 50R
Contravention Performing a prohibited turn (no right turn)
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stamfordman
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 12:32
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DJ Lexy
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 12:37
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QUOTE (Lara G @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 22:19) *
Isn't there some legislation that says a road has to have a 'no entry' sign on both sides of it so that it's clear you can't enter?


That doesn't apply here, because it isn't a 'no entry' road. People coming from the other direction are allowed to turn left into it.

QUOTE (Lara G @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 22:19) *
I was not aware I could not turn right - the road markings did not show this and in fact warned pedestrians to look right before crossing.


Same thing - because people coming from the other direction can turn left into it.
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 09:05
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Well, really there shouldn't be a no entry sign at all as you cannot have a no entry sign that only applies to traffic coming from one direction, but the no entry sign is not what the OP is accused of contravening.

I'm amazed we haven't seen a lot more of this because the positioning of the signs is plainly wrong.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 09:22
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Below is an appeal that Mr Mustard did for another case. The good thing here is that the video shows the signs clearly.

---------------


1. The siting of the signage giving instruction regarding the prohibited right turn is not in accordance with the Traffic Signs Manual 2019 (located here https://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-03.pdf).

Specifically, Chapter 3 - clause 4.5.3 of the Manual ("Compulsory and Prohibited Movements", "Siting of Signs at Junctions") prescribes: "A prohibited turn sign to diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction, normally on the left hand side. However, it is for the traffic authority to consider whether the sign should be sited or duplicated either on the right hand side of the road or on any central refuge where this might be helpful to drivers, e.g. where there are two or more approach lanes and where a “no right turn” sign on the left hand side is likely to be obscured by vehicles in the nearside lane. A situation where it might be helpful to duplicate a “no left turn” sign is where the nearside lane is reserved for buses and the left turn is prohibited.".

This can also be clearly seen in Figure 4-12 of the manual, which portrays the same road layout as the one where the PCN was issued.

Contrary to the guidance in the Manual, the signage giving instruction regarding the prohibited turn into Rodborough Road is sited in line with the junction on the left-hand side and after the junction on the right-hand side (file “Location.PDF” attached: Goggle Streets View picture and Google Maps, with comparison to Figure 4-12 of the manual;).

This siting of the signs makes it not only against guidance but also insufficiently clear, particularly so given the fact that this is a junction where the combination of a heavily trafficked bus stop on the left (therefore the sign is frequently blocked from view), a pedestrian crossing with lights immediately ahead and heavy pedestrian crossing of Rodborough Road on the right, generates the need of maximum clarity when instructing about a prohibited turn.

The council might argue that the heavily trafficked bus stop located on the left-hand side immediately before the junction made it inappropriate to site the signage as required by the Manual in this specific occasion. While this may be the case, it must be noted that moving the signage after or inline with the junction is not an option sanctioned by the Manual. Other options are specifically given in the manual in regards to bus stops for example and are clearly stated in paragraph 4.5.3 quoted above.

The council could have implemented other solutions that are sanctioned by the manual such as siting signage before the junction in addition to the signage at the current location and/or apply the road marking "AHEAD ONLY" to supplement the upright signs. It should be noted that such road marking is used to signal the prohibited right turn from Rodborough Road to Finchley Road at the same junction and in that position the no left turn signs are adequate, clear and compliant with regulations.





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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 11:49
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I would do something a lot simpler (keep the italics formatting as I've used it below):

--------------------------

Dear London Borough of Barnet,

It should go without saying that one cannot breach a sign that one has not reached, let alone passed. A no right turn sign is located prior to the turn that it applies to, so that a motorist passing the sign will appreciate that they are prohibited from turning right once they have passed the sign. The signs at this location are located after the junction which they supposedly apply to, but they misleadingly convey the impression that a right turn is prohibited at some turn located beyond the signs.

In the circumstances, the signs fail to comply with regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, which provides that:

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force


In this instances, adequate information is not made available to persons using the road. It is worth pointing out that the signage could be made unequivocal with little difficulty: all the council needs to do is place one sign on the offside, immediately prior to the junction, one sign on the nearside (and the pole used for the CCTV camera could conveniently be used for this purpose) and, for good measure, and additional sign could be added immediately prior to the bus stop to account for the nearside sign beng obscured by buses.

Due to the inadequate positioning of the signs, the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled. I trust the council will also cancel all outstanding PCNs at this location and suspend enforcement until the signage issues have been rectified.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 11:50


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Lara G
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 16:38
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Wow, that is so kind of you all to send me all this information and wording!

I will try writing that to Barnet and see how it goes.

Thank you so much for your help.
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 19:05
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Barnet will likely reject, but we can then sort out an appeal to the tribunal. If you get a rejection letter, post it up on here before you do anything.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Lara G
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 22:40
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I received a Formal Notice of Rejection for this PCN.

They wrote:

We have carefully considered your comments and (where appropriate) the evidence you have supplied and decided not to cancel your PCN.

Your vehicle was observed performing a prohibited right turn. Signs with red circles give prohibited instruction, and I must advise you that signage in place for a 'No right turn' at this location meets the statutory requirements as set down in the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Direction 2016.

I appreciate your comments citing part of the The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 Act; however, it has no bearing on the contravention. The still photos as well as the CCTV footage show the prominently placed 'no right turn' sign at the junction informing motorists not to turn right. The onus is upon the driver of the vehicle to ensure that traffic signs are observed and adhered to at all times. It is also the responsibility of the motorist to be aware of road traffic signs and adhere to their instructions at all times, as such no motorist should miss this sign, which prohibits a right turn at the location.

I really don't want to end up paying more than necessary. Should I just pay £65 now and end it? I have until 15 July to be able to pay £65 which is 50% of the charge.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 10 Jul 2020 - 11:17
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post up the rejection notice in full there may be errors I would not be thinking of paying, rather i would be saving the cost of a cup of coffee a week. Then in the unlikely event that i lost at adjudication i would have saved the difference if not the best part of the penalty. Then if i win i can have a nice treat


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cp8759
post Fri, 10 Jul 2020 - 13:20
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Do not pay anything, the council has sunk its own case. The council has stated that The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 has no bearing on the contravention, this proves beyond doubt that they do not understand the legislation and amounts to a failure to consider. Honestly I would pursue costs against the council if they contest this further.

Post up the rejection letter for now. The council is only re-offering the discount because they don't want you to appeal, but I am virtually certain that if you appel, you will win and pay nothing at all.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Lara G
post Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 22:36
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Are you sure I will win it, if other people did not win this case?

I attach the letter of rejection here.
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cp8759
post Yesterday, 19:25
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QUOTE (Lara G @ Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 23:36) *
Are you sure I will win it, if other people did not win this case?

I cannot give you a cast iron guarantee, but I'm sure as I reasonably can be that you will win if I write your appeal for you. To put a realistic estimate, I'd say you have at least a 90% chance of winning.

QUOTE (Lara G @ Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 23:36) *
I attach the letter of rejection here.

You haven't, upload them to an external site like imgur.com and post a link.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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