PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Newham Issued PCN because I stopped at a bus lane FOR FIVE SECONDS.
Kat65
post Sat, 27 Jun 2020 - 23:17
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJ1mJbDvMU...eature=youtu.be (Please pardon the censoring for privacy reason).

Images: https://postimg.cc/gallery/6qQPMTJ

PCN Number: PN50018414

Web Code: 668YG782


Hello, back again as a result of psychopathic Newham looking to fill their coffers.

I've been issued (actually my mom has been issued but I'm writing on behalf of her) with a Penalty Charge Notice on the 26th of June 2020. This was regarding an "incident" that occurred on the 16th of June 2020. I'll explain. Me and my mother went to the local Tesco located on Green Street. Outside the Tesco, there is a bus lane. Now, as a result of the pandemic, we thought "let's get a little bit extra for our family." as we have a sick relative and therefore wish to limit out outside going as much as possible.

I can't drive, but my mother can. So she said "It's fine. I'll go get the car from the Queen Market parking (where she had parked earlier) and I'll stop outside the Tesco and you can jump in with the shopping." (because there's no parking outside the Green Street Tesco Metro) The shopping was very heavy like I said- we wish to limit our involvement outside and there was no way the both of us could carry it all the way to Queen Market.

It took 5 SECONDS for me to jump in the car with groceries, and there were no buses nearby- yet Newham wants the cash $$$.

Anyway, they're not interested in the explanation so I suppose my only argument is me pulling my hair and screeching "Why? Why would you do that? Really? For 5 seconds and I get a £65 bill?"

The reason I came to this forum is to get help on the matter, specifically if there's any laws that could help.

This post has been edited by Kat65: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 01:32
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sat, 27 Jun 2020 - 23:17
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 00:32
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,145
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Well I kinda guessed your "ONE SECOND" was a joke before I even looked. I watched 15 seconds befofe my wifi stopped me.
More importantly, not a bus lane at all but a bus stop'; a 'no stopping' restriction.

But wait to see what others have to say.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kat65
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 01:35
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 01:32) *
Well I kinda guessed your "ONE SECOND" was a joke before I even looked. I watched 15 seconds befofe my wifi stopped me.
More importantly, not a bus lane at all but a bus stop'; a 'no stopping' restriction.

But wait to see what others have to say.


Oh my mistake I saw the video after I typed up the thread title and it felt like it took a second or two for me to throw the groceries in the car and jumped in the front seat. I forgot to change the title but done so now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 07:54
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,934
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Stopped for at least 35 seconds where not permitted.

The rest of your account is irrelevant as regards the enforcement process and as the council wouldn't have been aware anyway certainly doesn't provide any basis for your opening tirade against them.

Now that you've seen the video, what do you propose?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 09:15
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,475
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



No chance on the contravention but post the PCN for a check.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 09:43
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,834
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (Kat65 @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 02:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 01:32) *
Well I kinda guessed your "ONE SECOND" was a joke before I even looked. I watched 15 seconds befofe my wifi stopped me.
More importantly, not a bus lane at all but a bus stop'; a 'no stopping' restriction.

But wait to see what others have to say.


Oh my mistake I saw the video after I typed up the thread title and it felt like it took a second or two for me to throw the groceries in the car and jumped in the front seat. I forgot to change the title but done so now.

And if you'd stopped on some double or single lines you would have had the board/alight passengers exemption !
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kat65
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 16:43
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 08:54) *
Stopped for at least 35 seconds where not permitted.

The rest of your account is irrelevant as regards the enforcement process and as the council wouldn't have been aware anyway certainly doesn't provide any basis for your opening tirade against them.

Now that you've seen the video, what do you propose?


I want to get the charge revoked. I want them to consider that no services were disrupted and I had a valid basis to have the car stopped for a short period of time.

Okay, my tirade isn't warranted. I'll keep my composure next time.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 10:15) *
No chance on the contravention but post the PCN for a check.




PCN Number: PN50018414

Web Code: 668YG782

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 10:43) *
QUOTE (Kat65 @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 02:35) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 01:32) *
Well I kinda guessed your "ONE SECOND" was a joke before I even looked. I watched 15 seconds befofe my wifi stopped me.
More importantly, not a bus lane at all but a bus stop'; a 'no stopping' restriction.

But wait to see what others have to say.


Oh my mistake I saw the video after I typed up the thread title and it felt like it took a second or two for me to throw the groceries in the car and jumped in the front seat. I forgot to change the title but done so now.

And if you'd stopped on some double or single lines you would have had the board/alight passengers exemption !


I thought that perhaps the construction work that's happening behind the bus stop could make a reasonable excemption that there is nowhere for some else to be able to jump in the car.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 17:00
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,475
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Location and time/date OK and we don't know of current flaws on Newham's PCNs but you could post the back.

No stopping means just that - nearly all London bus stops are strictly no stopping and many have CCTV. You're going to have chalk this up to experience.

You can ask Newham for discretion but the chances are about as close to zero as it gets.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5367792,0.0...6384!8i8192

The bus stop is very long and the no stopping sign is right at the other end but it's there.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 17:04
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kat65
post Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 17:30
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jun 2020 - 18:00) *
Location and time/date OK and we don't know of current flaws on Newham's PCNs but you could post the back.

No stopping means just that - nearly all London bus stops are strictly no stopping and many have CCTV. You're going to have chalk this up to experience.

You can ask Newham for discretion but the chances are about as close to zero as it gets.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5367792,0.0...6384!8i8192

The bus stop is very long and the no stopping sign is right at the other end but it's there.


I posted more images of the PCN letter. I'll write up the appeal today, post it on the forum for scrutinisation before sending it off to Newham.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 08:10
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,934
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551




and I had a valid basis to have the car stopped for a short period of time.

The problem is that in law you did not have any basis. Your account and reasons go to mitigation only.

I suggest you do not say that you had a valid reason. You could say that you thought you had a valid reason ....but now you know that this was incorrect, you are therefore wiser and would certainly not stop again.

But do not try and claim that the contravention did not occur, IMO this would be counter-productive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 10:01
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,451
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Personally I think this case is hopeless: the contravention is banged-to-rights and Newham never exercises discretion to cancel, so honestly I advise paying the discount.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 10:10
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,475
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



I too recommend paying the discount and not wasting time on this. Also, the OP is presumably not the keeper and there is always a danger of paperwork going astray and the case escalating. Best to settle now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Longtime Lurker
post Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 21:12
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 196
Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Member No.: 95,615



Another vote for paying at the discounted rate, you're bang to rights on this one. 'Don't stop on a bus stops unless you're a bus' is unfortunately a lesson you've learned the hard way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 30 Jun 2020 - 12:01
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,744
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Mon, 29 Jun 2020 - 22:12) *
Another vote for paying at the discounted rate, you're bang to rights on this one. 'Don't stop on a bus stops unless you're a bus' is unfortunately a lesson you've learned the hard way.


And another one. I had thought that here may be an argument re the position of the sign, but you stopped to close to it


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kat65
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 00:33
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



Before I make a decision on whether or not to pay or to appeal, I can't seem to find a section on the notice where it states that if I was to lose the appeal then I'd have to pay the full £130?

I figured I might as well spend 10 minutes writing up an appeal and if they accept it, cool. If not, then I could then pay the discounted amount? Unless the discount is removed upon appeal?

Thank you for information.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 08:24
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,834
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Normal practice in London is for the discount to be re-offered if representations are rejected, provided those reps are submitted within the discount period. If, then, you take it to London Tribunals as is your right, the discount option is lost, and the full £130 is payable if you lose. There is, however, nothing in law that requires them to re-offer the discount, but if the reply comes within the 21 days, then the discount option still applies.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 1 Jul 2020 - 10:00
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,934
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551




OP, just for clarity the term 'appeal' applies to the adjudicator, you make representations to the authority.

The PCN does refer to payment: if you don't pay the discount then the full penalty is owed at ALL times after the discount period has elapsed unless, as per Incandescent, this is re-offered by the authority at their absolute discretion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kat65
post Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 20:22
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 3 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,714



Thank you for the information.

I've written up the appeal which I will submit by today midnight. The following:

Hello, I have received a PCN on the 26th of June 2020. The PCN was in regards to the incident of me stopping the car on a bus lane. It is unfortunate that such contravention had occurred, and I would like to state my points as to why I ask for the contravention to be exempted in this particular circumstance.

The coronavirus pandemic has resulted in disruption of services and still pose a threat today. Going to Tesco Metro on that particular day, I decided that it was vital to order more items than usual as to limit visits to the shop. This, however, resulted in the groceries bag being quite heavy which my son and I could not carry all the way to the car that was parked in the parking of Queen's Market. I decided, therefore, that my son should wait outside the Tesco with the groceries while I drive the car to him. As you can see from the video, I had been at the bus lane for a total of 15 seconds or so, with my son taking 5 seconds or so in putting the groceries at the back of the car and then sitting at the front of the car. Would it have been reasonable for both of us to carry the shopping towards Queen Market only go go back the direction we came from? This was our viewpoint, that only one would go to the parking of Queen Market.

You may, therefore, argue- that the contravention has still occurred. But, I must put emphasis that as seen per the images and the video provided, it was an unfortunate decision that I was to stop at the bus stop for my son to get in the car. The video shows how all surrounding areas otherwise reserved for parking has been closed off. Take for instance the red and white barrier behind the bus lane. You can also see how the video portrays, at 0:14, a group of pedestrians behind my car, crossing the road walking through the bus lane, it is clear from this scenario that the bus stop is the only place in that area for someone to jump off or jump in the car. You can also see at 0:28 how another individual in front of my car had crossed the street walking through the bus stop. Of course, there is a difference between a car and a group of pedestrians but I emphasise the same message, what is the difference between my son crossing the road while stepping on the lane for the bus and the difference between my son getting in my car which had stopped for less than half a minute on the bus stop?

You will also see that no bus services were disrupted as a result of this incident, indeed the bus that appears in the video is far from the bus stop and I would argue the bus driver had not even realised that such contravention has occurred. Indeed, I ask this question- have I disrupted anything? Had I inconvenienced the bus driver? At 0:33, it is evident that my car had begun to drive forward.

And, as I had mentioned before, this incident because there was no way my son and I could carry such heavy groceries for 8 minutes towards Queen Market- and the heavy groceries was the result of looking to minimise visits to the outside world to avoid spreading the coronavirus pandemic. Will this incident occur again? No.

Am I to pay the fine? The contravention had been commited, but I ask for the contravention to be excempted for the reasons I listed above and will summarise below:

1) The barriers across Green Street restrict the access for car owners to allow passengers to jump in or out of the car.
2) It's more practical for my son to have waited for 10 minutes outside the Tesco to therefore put the groceries in my car once it arrived, as oppose to walk with me towards the Queen's Market where the both of us would've struggled carrying such heavy groceries.
3) The heavy groceries was the result of limiting visits to store by stocking up on more items, thereby reducing the spread of the coronavirus pandemic.
4) Finally, no bus services were actually disrupted as a result of the contravention and the incident was well over before the bus driver could even realise that such an incident could happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The context had to be provided because it links with the coronavirus pandemic, which may make the Newham Council consider more hearty what I've said.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 23:24
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,834
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Well, all very nice, and believe me, I do sympathise, but it is unlikely to soften their very hard hearts.

Councils have discretion as to whether to even issue a PCN when CCTV detects a very minor offence, but they never do so. Why ? Because they want the money, nothing else counts. I say this because as you rightly point out, no inconvenience was suffered by anybody by your actions, and there is no possible and demonstrable traffic management benefit in issuing a Penalty Charge Notice.



This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 10:59
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 21:07
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,451
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



The argument for mitigation is strongly diluted by the fact that you could have stopped on the double yellow lines here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.536694,0....33;8i8192?hl=en where the boarding / alighting exemption would have entitled you to stop legally. Newham will undoubtedly reject your representation, at which point you really should pay the discount or this will end up costing you a lot more.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 14th July 2020 - 12:18
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.