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2 tickets while delivering to a family self isolating
MALLIES
post Thu, 18 Jun 2020 - 14:49
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Hi,

My son got 2 PCN's while delivering essential supplies (separate occasions) to a family who are self isolating, do you think there's any chance Brent might accept this as mitigating circumstances?

Thanks.
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post Thu, 18 Jun 2020 - 14:49
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stamfordman
post Thu, 18 Jun 2020 - 14:55
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Unloading could be an exemption.

Post the PCNs and council pics - are they for the same location and same contravention?

Any reason why son couldn't have parked legally?

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.
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MALLIES
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 12:57
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Sorry for the delay in posting pics, these are for the 1st PCN for code 06 being in parked in a pay & display bay which (if i understand correctly) the PCN states as being parked on street at 26 Blenheim Gdns. The bay outside 26 Blenheim Gdns is a residents parking bay. As you can see the CEO's pics show my son's car parked at a different location 159 metres away in Blenheim Gdns (my son measured on Google Maps). Would there be any grounds for appeal with this apart from the fact that he was also delivering essentials to self isolating family? There is never anywhere to park there so you really don't have any option other than to park on a yellow line or in a bay if you are just dropping stuff off. My son had to unload goods from car walk to house, wait for the disabled lady to answer the door and take the goods into the house for her (social distancing of course). As you can see the observation time was 4 minutes, the CEO'S pics span 3 minutes which really doesn't allow anytime at all. Will post other PCN's in a while as have to work but would really appreciate any help or advice in this. Thanks.



















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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 13:35
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Blenheim gardens is a permit parking zone so something is wrong The GSV of where the council say you parked and the one you say you where parked do not match up please give us a GSV of exactly where you were parked


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mickR
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 14:27
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As indicated in the OPs diagram of where they parked, Plus code GQXH+V8 Willesden, London I cant save location or focus on street signs on my device for some reason

This post has been edited by mickR: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 14:28
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 15:04
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The PCN does not say o/s 26 Blenheim Gardens.

It states:

Location: OS 26ABC
Street: Blenheim Gardens.

The car was parked adjacent to the flank wall of 26 Station Road, the restaurant on the corner. ABC is probably some CEO-speak description. It does not invalidate the 'grounds of contravention', particularly as the driver ( the OP, as in 'I parked here' or their son?) knows where they were and the photos pinpoint the location.

OP, I suggest you move on from this point before it distracts you and us.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 15:17
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Must say, playing devil's advocate, why would you park in a P&D bay and not buy a ticket? For just 20p there you get 6 minutes + 10 mins grace = 16 mins.

And doing it twice I presume?

Let's hope the council accept the unloading to a vulnerable resident argument as an exemption or at least discretion.

PS - I think there's a dead area on GSV at the end of the road.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 15:22
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 15:20
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 16:04) *
The PCN does not say o/s 26 Blenheim Gardens.

It states:

Location: OS 26ABC
Street: Blenheim Gardens.

The car was parked adjacent to the flank wall of 26 Station Road, the restaurant on the corner. ABC is probably some CEO-speak description. It does not invalidate the 'grounds of contravention', particularly as the driver ( the OP, as in 'I parked here' or their son?) knows where they were and the photos pinpoint the location.

OP, I suggest you move on from this point before it distracts you and us.


As you are fond of saying let the OP show us. Can you find ABC st on GSV?


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mickR
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 16:38
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The only location i can get from that is Blenheim Gardens! What is OS26ABC ?? The location appears to be cobblers.
@ hca what has 26 staion rd got to do with it? The vehicle clearly wasnt in station rd. What is "some ceo speak description" is there provision for that in a specified location?
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AdeyG
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 18:13
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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 17:38) *
The only location i can get from that is Blenheim Gardens! What is OS26ABC ?? The location appears to be cobblers.

Seems the vehicle was parked in Blenheim Gdns, o/s the pedestrian entrance to flats 26A, 26B, 26C, which are above Sanzio, 26 Station Parade.

This post has been edited by AdeyG: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 20:38
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 18:38
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The regulations do not require that a location is stated. But the tribunal interpretation of a CEO reason to believe a penalty is due is invariably that the location be stated And that it be correct.

This parking event took place on Station parade, and that does not show anywhere on the PCN.

HCA maintains that a PCN is not a demand for payment, that being the job of the next document a notice to owner. That must by law be served on the RK who is presumed to be the owner. If that was one of us what chance would we have of finding the location that this occurred?

The location cited is incorrect and that is usually enough to win an appeal


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mickR
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 19:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 19:38) *
This parking event took place on Station parade, and that does not show anywhere on the PCN


Station parade? The photos show Blenheim Gardens, or are you thinking station parade extends into the entrance of B gdns??
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 20:11
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I'm going off the OP's map but It cannot be a sure thing because GSV will not show it so it is down tpo the OP to gather evidence of where the parked if they are correct then no contravention


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stamfordman
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 20:28
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Yes, OP needs to go back and take a pic of the sign in the bay where parked. There are shared use bays at the other end of Blenheim but GSV has a black hole at the end we need.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 21:00
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The PCN states the grounds as clearly as any adjudicator would require IMO. It does not mislead, it is not required to give a 12-figure grid reference.

Others differ.

C'est la vie.

And as regards PMB's comment: If that was one of us what chance would we have of finding the location that this occurred?

What is being suggested? That there are grounds for challenging a PCN on the basis that an unserved NTO would not contain sufficient details??? A NTO might state Blenheim Gardens which would be absolutely correct and compliant.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 21:05
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big_mac
post Mon, 22 Jun 2020 - 08:09
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 21:11) *
I'm going off the OP's map but It cannot be a sure thing because GSV will not show it so it is down tpo the OP to gather evidence of where the parked if they are correct then no contravention

The OP's map states that the car was parked in Blenheim Gardens, close to Station Parade, and the photos clearly match that.

The council photo certainly looks to be the correct sign, I don't think there is any reason to believe that it isn't.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=b3cf0cd8-8dc...amp;form=S00027
https://goo.gl/maps/bqdd94zxSJXMWFgF9
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stamfordman
post Mon, 22 Jun 2020 - 09:04
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Mon, 22 Jun 2020 - 09:09) *
The council photo certainly looks to be the correct sign, I don't think there is any reason to believe that it isn't.
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=b3cf0cd8-8dc...amp;form=S00027
https://goo.gl/maps/bqdd94zxSJXMWFgF9


That view covers the missing GSV so indeed there is a P&D bay there. Can't see a machine though but presumably there is one on Station Parade but possible point on hard to find.

Again comes down to whether there is a claim for exemption for loading. Or failing that, discretion for delivering to a vulnerable person.

But against that is the failure to just buy a 20p P&D ticket.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 22 Jun 2020 - 09:06
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+1.

OP, IMO you should return to what I believe might be more fruitful lines of enquiry/defence.

Look on the council website and/or phone the council and find out whether delivering is permitted in P&D bays and if so the conditions which apply.
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cp8759
post Mon, 22 Jun 2020 - 13:24
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The OP was parked here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5495106,-...33;8i6656?hl=en more or less outside the Sanzio restaurant, which is number 26 Station Parade but that is on the corner and slightly more in line with Blenheim Gardens.

My guess, in this scenario CEOs are trained to state on the PCN that the location is "o/s road number, street name" and whatever training document they have refers to "street number, ABC" where "ABC" is a placeholder for the street name, and rather than putting the street name the CEO has just written ABC.

The location seems pretty clear to me and I doubt you could win on this alone, in any case for parking contraventions the tribunal is normally satisfied if the name of the road and the type of bay are correct so I agree you need to move on from this.

You need to get hold of the Traffic Management Order for this bay to check if it includes an exemption for loading.


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MALLIES
post Tue, 23 Jun 2020 - 08:28
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Thank you for all your responses, i have asked Brent for the Traffic Order and CEO's notes, but as there is currently no way of speaking to or emailing anyone at Brent Parking (customer services had no idea re traffic orders etc and all pcn options are recorded messages directing you back to their website due to Covid 19) the only way to do this was via the 'make a challenge/representation' option on their PCN portal. It now says the PCN is on hold: workflow, I have also received an email headed 'Representation evidence acknowledgment'. Do you think this means they are treating my request as representations?

To clarify, my son was the driver, he says he didn't have cash or cards on him and as he was literally just dropping off at the house practically adjacent to where he had parked he thought it would be ok for a few minutes. The same applies to the ticket he got for parking on the single yellow line, there was nowhere else to park and as it was also adjacent to the house he was dropping off to he thought he would be ok for a few minutes.

Pics below show 26ABC relates to Sanzios Rest at 26 Station Parade. The P&D sign doesn't give any indication as to where the machine is to purchase a ticket, should it and should there be a machine in the road where the bay is?







Thanks again for your help.
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