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PCN 31J - Junction box, London, Contravention 31J
AM88
post Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 14:54
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Hi genius folk,

Got a PCN 31J through recently in london and wondering if it is worth fighting.

First quick question - am I likely to get a response in the 2 week period to my representations, so that I do not forfeit my discount? Quite a risk otherwise.

I cannot download the video so unsure how to link it, but here are some screens showing my entering and stopping the box. Please let me know if I should post anything else:
https://imgur.com/a/3Q7sacT


My reasoning is thus:

I believe the prescribed contravention did not occur.

The contravention quoted is "a person causes a vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles". The video evidence shows that:

1) There was an opportunity to exit the box to the space in front of my vehicle, but I chose not to do so as this would be covering a pedestrian crossing and there was a pedestrian to my left that I believe was about to cross the road through the slow traffic. If I was subsequently causing an obstruction at any time, I could simply have pulled forward into this pedestrian crossing area. There was therefore enough space to fully exit the box before I entered it, but I chose to stop in the box in order to allow the pedestrian to cross.
2) Before I entered the junction box, the traffic ahead of me and in the near distance was still moving and it could reasonably be judged there was enough space to exit the box. The next traffic light was green and I could see cars ahead were moving. A reason for the delay in traffic ahead was a motorbike unexpectedly pulling out and turning left from a side road, causing the car a few ahead of my car to delay - I could not have predicted this.
3) In addition, there are double yellow lines painted around the edge of the box, and the remains of old junction box paint that has been painted over and left in a confusing state, so I believe the marking is not very clear.
-----

I don't know if it is also worth mentioning I was stopped for less than 10 seconds? I've heard around 5 is more likely for de minimis?

Appreciate your feedback!

Let me know if I need to provide any other info.
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post Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 14:54
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Incandescent
post Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 17:32
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Please post up the PCN, and also the video. Do be aware that virtually all appeals for YBJs end up at London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play, so if you're worried about the discount just cough-up now, but not until we've seen the video. Going to adjudication is ALWAYS a gamble, sometimes with extremely good odds, sometimes bad, and we'll tell you which in our opinion your chances are.

If you submit representations all the London councils usually reoffer the discount when rejecting them as they know most people cough-up at that point and it avoids them the hassle of preparing their evidence.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 17:50
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Post the PCN. If you PM me the details and I'll post the video.
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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 08:13
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 18:32) *
Please post up the PCN, and also the video. Do be aware that virtually all appeals for YBJs end up at London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play, so if you're worried about the discount just cough-up now, but not until we've seen the video. Going to adjudication is ALWAYS a gamble, sometimes with extremely good odds, sometimes bad, and we'll tell you which in our opinion your chances are.

If you submit representations all the London councils usually reoffer the discount when rejecting them as they know most people cough-up at that point and it avoids them the hassle of preparing their evidence.


Ok thanks, have sent stamfordman the PCN details.

So I don't have much to lose from challenging? Unless they don't reoffer the discount for some reason?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 08:58
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You stopped short for a crossing and not for stationary traffic as there was a space ahead of you. I say no contravention but the council probably won't agree but you should make reps to Wandsworth on this basis and we'll assess what they say.

Post the PCN first.




This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:16
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:58) *
You stopped short for a crossing and not for stationary traffic as there was a space ahead of you. I say no contravention but the council probably won't agree but you should make reps to Wandsworth on this basis and we'll assess what they say.

Post the PCN first.

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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:29
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2180461449

Mr Mills did not attend for his appeal hearing listed today. I decide the appeal on the written evidence of both parties and the CCTV footage.

Mr Mills denies the contravention.

The contravention occurs if a person causes a vehicle to enter the box junction so that all or part of the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. The Enforcement Authority does not have to prove that the vehicle caused any obstruction to other road users.

The CCTV footage shows the appellant’s car drive into the box junction and stop with the front part of the car in the box. The footage shows that there is a gap between the far edge of the box and the back of the car stopped a short distance beyond the box. I find that it is unclear from the footage that this gap is insufficient to accommodate the appellant’s vehicle. I am not satisfied that the appellant’s car had to stop in the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

I allow this appeal.
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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:39
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You guys are fantastic!

Stamfordman, do you mean post a scan of the pcn letter they sent me?

My main concern with the challenge was that the crossing would signify that the exit of the box was not in fact safely clear, but I agree this is not due to stationary vehicles as the contravention states.

Good chance of winning then?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 09:58
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QUOTE (AM88 @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 10:39) *
Stamfordman, do you mean post a scan of the pcn letter they sent me?

My main concern with the challenge was that the crossing would signify that the exit of the box was not in fact safely clear, but I agree this is not due to stationary vehicles as the contravention states.

Good chance of winning then?



Yes post all the PCN as there may be something technical we can pick up also. Leave in all times and dates.

The contravention is only made out when the stop is due to stationary vehicles. Had there been one ahead in that crossing space you would have been bang to rights.

In future always get out of the box. There is no penalty for stopping on that crossing.
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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 10:25
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Thanks for the advice, here's me thinking blocking pedestrians would be worse eh...

PCN letter attached.



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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 10:41
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QUOTE (AM88 @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 10:39) *
My main concern with the challenge was that the crossing would signify that the exit of the box was not in fact safely clear, but I agree this is not due to stationary vehicles as the contravention states.

Doesn't matter, stopping for any reason other than due to stationary vehicles is not a contravention under this legislation.

The charge certificate date on the PCN looks wrong, but to confirm please post up all the remaining pages of the PCN. Use an external image hosting site like imgur.com if you run out of space on here.


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No, I am not a lawyer.
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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 11:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 11:41) *
QUOTE (AM88 @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 10:39) *
My main concern with the challenge was that the crossing would signify that the exit of the box was not in fact safely clear, but I agree this is not due to stationary vehicles as the contravention states.

Doesn't matter, stopping for any reason other than due to stationary vehicles is not a contravention under this legislation.

The charge certificate date on the PCN looks wrong, but to confirm please post up all the remaining pages of the PCN. Use an external image hosting site like imgur.com if you run out of space on here.


Which date do you think looks wrong? I think it's correct.

The reverse of the letter is just details to make representations.

Cheers
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 11:56
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There is part of the rear that we need, what you see is a date the looks correct to you, but what is the 28 day period? Post the back you have a good case re the stop but lets check everything. I can say with some conviction if it is not wrong it will be at best ambiguous and that will also help


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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 13:00
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 12:56) *
There is part of the rear that we need, what you see is a date the looks correct to you, but what is the 28 day period? Post the back you have a good case re the stop but lets check everything. I can say with some conviction if it is not wrong it will be at best ambiguous and that will also help


OK sure - the letter is attached here. Apologies for the potato quality, the letter was sent to my parents house and they aren't so good with the cameras smile.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 13:24
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I would suggest the date for serving a CC is wrong. This must not be served before 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice. The date of service is 2 working days later than the date of notice


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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 15:23
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I'm afraid I don't follow - the only dates I see are the date of contravention (29/5) and the date of notice (05/06), everything seems to refer to this date of notice?

Also, are these technicalities worth including in this sort of claim? Can they not just re-issue the penalty with correct dates, or are there time periods for them that would have expired?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 15:51
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QUOTE (AM88 @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 16:23) *
I'm afraid I don't follow - the only dates I see are the date of contravention (29/5) and the date of notice (05/06), everything seems to refer to this date of notice?

Also, are these technicalities worth including in this sort of claim? Can they not just re-issue the penalty with correct dates, or are there time periods for them that would have expired?



it's about the date of notice vs date of service of notice.

They cannot reissue the PCN.

But the main point of a rep must be no contravention. A secondary ground can be made on the date issue.

Draft something and post here first.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 16:00
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So when do you think the 28 day period ends , but before you answer read the last paragraph of the last page of the PCN


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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 16:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 17:00) *
So when do you think the 28 day period ends , but before you answer read the last paragraph of the last page of the PCN


I might be being thick, but I believe the period ends 05/06 + 28 days therefore 03/07. The last paragraph says if my reps is rejected they will give a further 28 days from that rejection?

Ok, will draft something to post asap
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AM88
post Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 17:22
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It's an online system so don't need a full letter. My challenge draft:

---

I believe the prescribed contravention did not occur.

The contravention quoted is "a person causes a vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles". The video evidence shows that:

1) I did not stop within the box due to the prescence of stationary vehicles, but rather due to my decision to keep the pedestrian crossing clear. I chose to keep this crossing area clear as there was a pedestrian at the crossing who I believed was about to try and cross the road. If I was subsequently causing an obstruction at any time, I could simply have pulled forward into this pedestrian crossing area. There was therefore enough space to fully exit the box before I entered it, but I chose to stop in the box in order to allow the pedestrian to cross.

2) Before I entered the junction box, the traffic ahead of me and in the near distance was still moving and it could reasonably be judged there was enough space to exit the box. The next traffic light was green and I could see cars ahead were moving. A reason for the delay in traffic ahead was a motorbike unexpectedly pulling out and turning left from a side road, causing the car a few ahead of my car to delay - I could not have predicted this.

3) In addition, there are double yellow lines painted around the edge of the box, and the remains of old junction box paint that has been painted over and left in a confusing state, so I believe the marking is not very clear.

---

Not sure if points 2 and 3 are helpful, please let me know.

Also, please let me know if I should add a point about the confusion around the dates. (still not sure I follow the specifics there!)
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