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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 07:32
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I have got my self in a bit of a pickle and am unsure as the best option to take so I am here looking for some guidance...please

So, I have been recorded as doing 57 in a 50 on the M62 roadworks for 3 consecutive days, I am expecting potentially another 2 to come through as I have been getting on the motorway within the works and setting the cruise control to 55mph every day (my speedo must be out)

1) Can I fight this claiming that my speedo reads incorrect? - I'm guessing that they will just say it was my intention to speed anyway so the infraction stands

2) If I get the next 2 or even 3 NIP's should I try to get a speed awareness course for one of them and then go to court and plead exceptional hardship - should be easier to do at this time as I am self employed and did not qualify for any furlough scheme and would genuinely lose my job and probably house, I have 3 dependants.

3) Should I just wait until they all come and just send them off together and see what happens?


I have had a clean license for the past 6 years and this is a real sickener!!
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post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 07:32
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 07:48
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QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 08:32) *
1) Can I fight this claiming that my speedo reads incorrect? - I'm guessing that they will just say it was my intention to speed anyway so the infraction stands

Nope - any inaccuracy in your speedo is not a defence. It's not about intention as a strict liability offence.

It is very unusual though as most speedo's over read true speed. Is your car modified in any way?

It's highly unlikely their calibrated system is incorrect - is it an average speed system?

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 08:32) *
2) If I get the next 2 or even 3 NIP's should I try to get a speed awareness course for one of them and then go to court and plead exceptional hardship - should be easier to do at this time as I am self employed and did not qualify for any furlough scheme and would genuinely lose my job and probably house, I have 3 dependants.

You'll have to see how many you get. You might be able to get 1 course offer but if you end up with 12 points then you will have to go to court. As you note you can submit an exceptional hardship plea to reduce the 6 months ban potentially to none.

Bear in mind losing your job, in itself, is unlikely to be considered exceptional. You need to focus in the impact on others.

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 08:32) *
3) Should I just wait until they all come and just send them off together and see what happens?

Yes. You can try a 'begging' letter that you did not have any opportunity to adjust your driving prior to the first NIP arriving. (There's a counter argument you don't need such an opportunity)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 08:13
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Yes, It was an average speed system and yes my car is modified (all declared to insurance might I add)

Would forcing a wife, 2 children and an 80 year old man to become homeless count?

Do you know of anyone who has been successful using the begging letter route?


Hopefully I just get another one come through and I can get a course for the first one and stay on 9 points. Is it wise to represent myself in the case of a court appearance? I'm just unsure as how to enter the plea. I am quite willing to do all the legwork to put the case together.


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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 08:32
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QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Yes, It was an average speed system and yes my car is modified (all declared to insurance might I add)

Ok, did you slow in time for the first camera? They are not always obvious.

The modified question was specifically around wheels - the speedo can be impacted by significant changes in diameter. Or some electronic systems may have been configured incorrectly. Do a check with GPS.

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Would forcing a wife, 2 children and an 80 year old man to become homeless count?

Possibly. You would need to explore all angles - particularly whether you could make alternative arrangements to driving, e.g. public transport (not great at this time!).

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Do you know of anyone who has been successful using the begging letter route?

Yes - nothing ventured, nothing gained... But assume it won't work.

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Hopefully I just get another one come through and I can get a course for the first one and stay on 9 points. Is it wise to represent myself in the case of a court appearance? I'm just unsure as how to enter the plea. I am quite willing to do all the legwork to put the case together.

Yes, fingers crossed. 57mph is the start of enforcement but if you've used cruise then that will explain the duplicate speeds...

There's a train of thought that an EH plea comes best from the defendant as they are the one impacted. But a solicitor will be more experienced in dealing with the courts and to advise on increasing your chances of avoiding a ban.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 10:55
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QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Yes, It was an average speed system and yes my car is modified (all declared to insurance might I add)

Larger wheels by any chance?

Might be a good idea to check your speedo against a GPS based reading, using the Waze app or similar. Having a speedo that under reads is a separate offence, all speedos should be correct or over read up to 10%.
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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:18
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:32) *
QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Yes, It was an average speed system and yes my car is modified (all declared to insurance might I add)

Ok, did you slow in time for the first camera? They are not always obvious.

The modified question was specifically around wheels - the speedo can be impacted by significant changes in diameter. Or some electronic systems may have been configured incorrectly. Do a check with GPS.

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Would forcing a wife, 2 children and an 80 year old man to become homeless count?

Possibly. You would need to explore all angles - particularly whether you could make alternative arrangements to driving, e.g. public transport (not great at this time!).

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Do you know of anyone who has been successful using the begging letter route?

Yes - nothing ventured, nothing gained... But assume it won't work.

QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 09:13) *
Hopefully I just get another one come through and I can get a course for the first one and stay on 9 points. Is it wise to represent myself in the case of a court appearance? I'm just unsure as how to enter the plea. I am quite willing to do all the legwork to put the case together.

Yes, fingers crossed. 57mph is the start of enforcement but if you've used cruise then that will explain the duplicate speeds...

There's a train of thought that an EH plea comes best from the defendant as they are the one impacted. But a solicitor will be more experienced in dealing with the courts and to advise on increasing your chances of avoiding a ban.



No, the wheels are standard.

I would also be able to get a letter from my current employer citing my contract termination and subsequent hardship to the firm. I also have to carry a boot full of surveying equipment worth around 25k, a taxi ride to my place of work would be in the region of £120 per day.

Is it possible to go begging letter and then EH should the original fail? If so, is it best to send all the NIP's back and wait for the summons
I'm just not sure how it works actually "on the day" of me going to court, where and when do I enter the plea? to who do I present my letters.

This post has been edited by Skiptowncat: Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:26
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:36
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To my understandnig a begging letter is to the *police*, asking if they would *consider* dropping some of the charges leaving you on some points plus a course. So youd want to do that all together - return all NIP/"172 requests together, with a covering letter, so theyre all there in one go.

If its standard wheels then youve done something odd to get it to underread by that much. youve altered it by around 8% (usually 2mph overread at 50-60mph to 2mph under-read). You really need to get your speedo recalibrated

As for EH, you would need to have all speeding heard together, as IF the EH is accepted you cant make the same grounds out again for, i think, 3 years.
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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:42
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:36) *
To my understandnig a begging letter is to the *police*, asking if they would *consider* dropping some of the charges leaving you on some points plus a course. So youd want to do that all together - return all NIP/"172 requests together, with a covering letter, so theyre all there in one go.

If its standard wheels then youve done something odd to get it to underread by that much. youve altered it by around 8% (usually 2mph overread at 50-60mph to 2mph under-read). You really need to get your speedo recalibrated

As for EH, you would need to have all speeding heard together, as IF the EH is accepted you cant make the same grounds out again for, i think, 3 years.


Right, I see. Makes sense.

Is there a template I should follow? Written word isn't my strongest attribute.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 12:54
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Give it a try, its not going to be war and peace.
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:21
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Yes, you are trying to prevent the matter heading to court to start with... But let's see how many you end up with first.

But, do not mention anything with your speedo - simply return them all together and note that you did have the opportunity to rectify your mistake before the first NIP arrived. If you had been stopped at the time then you would have been had this opportunity.

...but this is the nature of automated devices - they are unforgiving and the Police may take the same view that the signage was sufficient and you don't need such a chance.

We have seen such letters work - but work on the basis it won't for now.

I've done a quick search and found this:

Dear xxxxxx,

Thank you for the three letters you sent me, dated xxx, yyy and zzz.

I am hugely embarrassed to receive them. I am a very careful driver who is aware of the danger of exceeding the speed limit, and I was shocked that I would have made mistakes so close together.

I'm sure you can imagine if I had received the first letter before subsequent offences I would have immediately corrected my driving. I would ask that you use your discretion to consider these offences together, due to the short intervening periods.

Thank you in advance for your assistance - rest assured I have learnt my lesson and will ensure such a mistake does not reoccur.

Your sincerely,


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:22
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To whom do I make the letter out to?
Does it need to be formal looking? Obviously I will type it out but does it need some structure?
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:26
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With the driver nominations you return.

Doesn't have to be war and peace.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Skiptowncat
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:40
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 14:26) *
With the driver nominations you return.

Doesn't have to be war and peace.


I'll see what this week brings then if i have to write a letter, I'll post it here first.
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mr_e_heart
post Thu, 21 May 2020 - 17:00
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would this happen to be the M62 westbound J12 - J11?
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Skiptowncat
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 06:36
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QUOTE (mr_e_heart @ Thu, 21 May 2020 - 18:00) *
would this happen to be the M62 westbound J12 - J11?


Certainly would sir!


Only had the 3 NIP's so far so fingers crossed
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The Rookie
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 06:55
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Reference your modifications, you have the same size wheel but what about tyre size?


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Slapdash
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 07:25
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 22 May 2020 - 07:55) *
Reference your modifications, you have the same size wheel but what about tyre size?


It is possible that it would make enough difference. Obviously a wider tyre at the same profile has a larger rolling radius. There are plenty of tyre size calculators about to check.

As an example 245-35-18 is about 2.5% bigger than 225-35-18. ThIs is about the same as the difference between new and fully worn. It could potentially be the difference between a cruise set 55 and an actual 57.

My BMW allows me to recalibrate the speedo via its "secret menu". I am sure many other vehicle do too.

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Skiptowncat
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 07:29
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 22 May 2020 - 07:55) *
Reference your modifications, you have the same size wheel but what about tyre size?


Tyres are as standard factory 235/35/19.

I checked the speedo v GPS speed and they are pretty much identical. I thought the cruise control went up in 5's but it actually goes up in 2.5 increments. It's entirely possible I had it set to 57.5 instead of 55 huh.gif
I'e only had the car 7 years nearly tongue.gif
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Durzel
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 11:40
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QUOTE (Skiptowncat @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 13:18) *
No, the wheels are standard.

I would also be able to get a letter from my current employer citing my contract termination and subsequent hardship to the firm. I also have to carry a boot full of surveying equipment worth around 25k, a taxi ride to my place of work would be in the region of £120 per day.

Is it possible to go begging letter and then EH should the original fail? If so, is it best to send all the NIP's back and wait for the summons
I'm just not sure how it works actually "on the day" of me going to court, where and when do I enter the plea? to who do I present my letters.

Do you have Class 1 business insurance? It sounds like you're doing more than just commuting to one permanent place of work, so I'd be mindful of that if you don't have the requisite level of cover in place, both in terms of pleading this case, but in the future as well.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 11:45
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QUOTE (Durzel @ Fri, 22 May 2020 - 12:40) *
...so I'd be mindful of that if you don't have the requisite level of cover in place, both in terms of pleading this case, but in the future as well.

I doubt his insurance cover will be called into question when this matter is dealt with.
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