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[NIP Wizard] 20mph radar gun from behind a bus?
PEPC
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 13:56
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2020
Date of the NIP: - 70 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 72 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Wandsworth Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Pulled away from traffic lights on motorbike with no urgency; rode short distance towards a left bend in the road. A bus ahead obscuring the bend.
As the bus cleared a traffic island, a policeman was made visible who immediately signalled for me AND a small capacity scooter to my left to pull over - it took a further 6seconds to reach the policeman. Was made to wait then eventually told I was travelling at 31mph. I don't believe I was travelling at 31mph. Neither I or the scooter were shown readouts of speed.
On reviewing my helmet-cam just now I have just spotted a police officer (no hi-vis) hiding behind a bus stop on his radio 60m along from the traffice light and 120m before the officer with radar gun (Google maps).
I have been sent an invitation to attend a speed awareness course.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 15 May 2020 13:56:51 +0000
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post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 13:56
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Jlc
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:15
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Do you have a specific question?

Ignore the NIP Wizard output as you were stopped at the time so it doesn't apply.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:15


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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PEPC
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:24
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I have only received one letter which is the 'National Speed Awareness Scheme - Invitation Letter - An alternative to penalty points or prosecution' some 2 months after being stopped. Does this not have to be sent within 14 days then?
Also I wasn't shown any proof of speed (which I believe was lower than stated), and I can't see (from reviewing my helmet camera) how it was even possible to see me through a double decker bus. Do I have a leg to stand on to contest this?

This post has been edited by PEPC: Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:25
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Jlc
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:28
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:24) *
I have only received one letter which is the 'National Speed Awareness Scheme - Invitation Letter - An alternative to penalty points or prosecution' some 2 months after being stopped. Does this not have to be sent within 14 days then?

Nope. The 14 days is for a postal NIP where you weren't stopped at the time.

QUOTE (PEPC @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:24) *
Also I wasn't shown any proof of speed (which I believe was lower than stated), and I can't see (from reviewing my helmet camera) how it was even possible to see me through a double decker bus. Do I have a leg to stand on to contest this?

They don't have to provide you proof at the time.

You can challenge but this would require a court hearing with you pleading not guilty. You'd have to reject the course/fixed penalty and be subject to court fines/costs should you be found guilty.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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PEPC
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:40
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Thanks - Looks like I'll be doing my On-Line (Covid19 Distancing) Speed Awareness Course tomorrow
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essexd
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 14:53
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If you're getting an SAC for a 31 in a 20mph then they must have submitted it as a lower speed.
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666
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:21
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QUOTE (essexd @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:53) *
If you're getting an SAC for a 31 in a 20mph then they must have submitted it as a lower speed.

No, 31 is the upper limit for a course. (110% of limit plus 2 mph).
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:30
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QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 16:21) *
QUOTE (essexd @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:53) *
If you're getting an SAC for a 31 in a 20mph then they must have submitted it as a lower speed.

No, 31 is the upper limit for a course. (110% of limit plus 9 mph).

Corrected.
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666
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 16:01
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 16:30) *
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 16:21) *
QUOTE (essexd @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 15:53) *
If you're getting an SAC for a 31 in a 20mph then they must have submitted it as a lower speed.

No, 31 is the upper limit for a course. (110% of limit plus 9 mph).

Corrected.

Thank you. It's been a long day in solitary confinement!
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PEPC
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 16:19
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OK grasping at straws - the letter I was sent has the wrong numberplate on it. The reg is one figure out and relates to a Transit van rather than my bike... or is this again irrelevant as I was stopped?

As an aside, any thoughts on this: "On reviewing my helmet-cam just now I have just spotted a police officer (no hi-vis) hiding behind a bus stop on his radio 60m along from the traffice light (where I started moving) and 120m before the officer with radar gun (Google maps)."

Thanks

This post has been edited by PEPC: Fri, 22 May 2020 - 16:23
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Jlc
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 16:34
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Fri, 22 May 2020 - 17:19) *
OK grasping at straws - the letter I was sent has the wrong numberplate on it. The reg is one figure out and relates to a Transit van rather than my bike... or is this again irrelevant as I was stopped?

Indeed - it's not a defence.

QUOTE (PEPC @ Fri, 22 May 2020 - 17:19) *
As an aside, any thoughts on this: "On reviewing my helmet-cam just now I have just spotted a police officer (no hi-vis) hiding behind a bus stop on his radio 60m along from the traffice light (where I started moving) and 120m before the officer with radar gun (Google maps)."

Not sure what you are suggesting? About the hi-vis?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 17:55
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Defences arise from whether you were breaking a legitimate speed limit or not, what the police do or do not do is pretty much irrelevant if they can prove you were driving over the limit.

Why you think an officer wearing hi-vis or not is relevant is beyond me.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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PEPC
post Sat, 23 May 2020 - 14:09
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As I said, grasping at straws... It's not the hi-vis specifically I was questioning (hence the parenthesis). As I understood it, 'speed traps' had to be visible, but as in this scenario, the officer was hiding behind a bus stop and apparently radioing ahead to the speed trap which was, at that point, not visible as it was much further up the road and even on the final approach there was no line of sight because of a double-decker bus in the way.
It just seems a little 'sneaky' to radio ahead and questionable whether or not my speed could've been measured.

And as far as 'what the police do being irrelevant if they can prove I was over the limit' - this was part of my question: I wasn't shown any proof so what form does this proof take?

I'm new to speeding fines/courses - despite over 25 years of having a licence driving in and around london, I've commuted on a bike every day for the last 20, and I own, insure and use 2 bikes, a car and a van - I'm not a speed demon!
Obviously I was keen to avoid 'punishment' - to paraphrase: why you think I wouldn't explore any available avenues is beyond me, but thanks for the replies; as I said above, looks like I'll be doing my On-Line (Covid19 Distancing) Speed Awareness Course.

This post has been edited by PEPC: Sat, 23 May 2020 - 14:09
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666
post Sat, 23 May 2020 - 14:53
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Sat, 23 May 2020 - 15:09) *
As I said, grasping at straws... It's not the hi-vis specifically I was questioning (hence the parenthesis). As I understood it, 'speed traps' had to be visible,

And as far as 'what the police do being irrelevant if they can prove I was over the limit' - this was part of my question: I wasn't shown any proof so what form does this proof take?

Your understanding is mistaken - there is no need for a speed trap to be visible.

As for 'proof', at trial the officer would give sworn testimony that your speed was measured using an approved device. He is likely to be believed: why would he lie inder oath, risking his job and possibly jail, to frame an innocent motorist when there is no shortage of guillty ones to keep him busy?
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cp8759
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 01:10
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Sat, 23 May 2020 - 15:09) *
It just seems a little 'sneaky' to radio ahead and questionable whether or not my speed could've been measured.

It would only be "sneaky" if motorists were entitled to a "sporting chance" of breaking the law. If you actually think about it it wouldn't make any sense.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 07:42
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I better wear Hi-vis all the time in case I witness a crime, otherwise the police would never be able to use my testimony, got to give those burglars, muggers, murderers etc a sporting chance after all.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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PEPC
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 10:48
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QUOTE (666 @ Sat, 23 May 2020 - 14:53) *
As for 'proof', at trial the officer would give sworn testimony that your speed was measured using an approved device. He is likely to be believed: why would he lie inder oath, risking his job and possibly jail, to frame an innocent motorist when there is no shortage of guillty ones to keep him busy?


Then what is the point of ever contesting a ticket?? I already said I don't believe I was doing 31mph - If the speed gun was obscured behind a bus, how could any speed be measured?


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 24 May 2020 - 07:42) *
I better wear Hi-vis all the time in case I witness a crime, otherwise the police would never be able to use my testimony, got to give those burglars, muggers, murderers etc a sporting chance after all.


I don't get your fixation with the hi-vis? It's incindental.



I don't think anyone should be given a "sporting chance" in these matters; that's not what I said. I was just of the impression there were rules and processes to be followed by either party, and having a 'look out' 150m or so down the road didn't appear to fit with that impression. I stand corrected.
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andy_foster
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 12:14
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Sun, 24 May 2020 - 11:48) *
I was just of the impression there were rules and processes to be followed by either party


You mean like the New Labour government publicly stating that speed cameras had to be conspicuous? And then bringing in rules that said that if 85% of cameras weren't sufficiently conspicuous, the remedy was that the camera partnership could report themselves to themselves and decide whether or not they ought to still keep the money? N.B. That only applied to the camera partnerships keeping the fixed penalties under hypothecation - which was done away with many years ago (and has now largely been replaced by the police offering not to prosecute if you do a course which has no statutory basis and that they get a £35 kick back from).

Obviously the regulars here know that the hypothecation rules were essentially just a bare faced lie, and somewhat out of date anyway. Some also enjoy belittling those that took the lies at face value and didn't know rthat they are now out of date anyway. Says more about them IMHO...


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"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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NewJudge
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 12:47
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QUOTE (PEPC @ Sun, 24 May 2020 - 11:48) *
Then what is the point of ever contesting a ticket?? I already said I don't believe I was doing 31mph - If the speed gun was obscured behind a bus, how could any speed be measured?


Unfortunately, although it is not strictly correct to say so, the "burden of proof" is all but reversed in speeding matters. A measurement from an approved device operated in the correct manner is assumed to be reliable. The police will bring evidence - in the form of the officer's testimony - that your speed was measured by such a device in such a manner. If you cannot discredit that evidence (which, as mentioned, will not be easy) then the burden shifts to you to show that the measurement cannot be relied upon. You would have to bring evidence to support that. It won't do to say "this might have happened" or "that could have happened." You have to show that it actually did happen in your case. You would have to show that the bus obscured you from the device and that it could not have taken a correct reading. It's difficult to do that at the best of times but is made all the more difficult for you because it relies solely upon your testimony describing the circumstances (assuming you have no other witnesses). Casting "reasonable doubt" is not enough. You would need to do only that if you were trying to discredit the officer's evidence. If you can't do that you have to prove your case "on the balance of probabilities" (i.e. that your version is more likely to be true than not).


In all honesty the course seems the most pragmatic choice. Declining that or a fixed penalty to challenge the matter in court will be an expensive day out if you fail. You will face an income related fine (with no discount), a surcharge of 10% of the fine, but most crippling of all, prosecution costs which will be at least £620. You won't have much change out of £1k.
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BrianB
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 14:14
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Is it possible that the first policeman measured your speed and radioed ahead for the second policeman to stop you? In which case the second officer would not be able to show you the reading.
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