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CC penalties and bailiffs actions
hartge
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 21:45
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Hello everyone,

I hope someone can help me get some sort of clarification and advise as to how to proceed next.

I will try and keep this brief.

I had moved out of the previous address and moved abroad in the car. While I was abroad it seems all correspondence from TFL and Bailiffs were sent to the previous address, because the vehicle remained registered to the old address.

My previous address was in the Congestion Charge Zone, despite holding a Resident’s Discount I have been charged a full amount for crossing CC zone. At the end of the months due to the TFL's system glitch the payment was not been processed via previously registered payment method (direct debit), and consequently, the TFL issued PCNs for non-payment of appropriate charge.

As a result, when I came back to the UK and rented accommodation at my current address, I have notified DVLA. However, my car been seized by a bailiff and towed away without giving any notification. I become aware after reporting to the police. The vehicle contained exempt trading tools. Notably, a new logbook arrived after 3 months when the car was towed away.

I have gone through the Statutory Declaration Out of Time process and have been granted permission to file my Stat Decs Out of Time by the Local County Court. However, some of the N244 Applications were refused.

Despite the fact that most of the PCN were reissued to the current address, where I had a chance to challenge them, the bailiffs demanded to pay an initial debt including the paid penalties and the storage fees for all time while the car was stored at the car pound.

I was waiting for the hearing of my last N244 application at the Local County Court when I had a call from the person who had bought my car and was asking whether I can sell the car keys. Also, they stated the car boot was empty, neither construction tools nor personal belongings were contained in the car.

Please let me know what our next step is in this process.
Thanks
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 22:02
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This looks a huge mess.

What are you looking for here? It seems all you can do is pay the outstanding debt at the lowest you can if some PCNs have been reissued.

How much were the tools worth - the bailiff ought to be responsible for those.

I can only think that our recommended https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk could help.

For us to help here we'd need to sees the documents and timeline but it all looks too far gone to me with car sold and some N244 refused.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 14 May 2020 - 22:08
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hartge
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 22:28
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QUOTE
What are you looking for here? It seems all you can do is pay the outstanding debt at the lowest you can if some PCNs have been reissued.

Hi,
thanks for reply
I was wondering what further steps can be done from my side. I have paid them already. From bailiffs words the case was returned to the TFL with outstanding amount of £664 (the initial debt was £7500) However, in order to return the vehicle the bailiff requested to pay £7500 for the debt and £13000 storage fees.

QUOTE
How much were the tools worth - the bailiff ought to be responsible for those.

Tools coast is about £1000. Bailiffs asked to surrender the keys and logbook. I refused as Logbook was sent to DVLA.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 22:36
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How much was the car worth?

This must have happened a while ago if there were £13,000 storage fees! Surely that's not right.

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hartge
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 23:00
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The car was towed away in 2018 and was estimated at £13000.

This post has been edited by hartge: Thu, 14 May 2020 - 23:01
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Incandescent
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 08:43
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You definitely need to contact 'bailiffadviceonline' !! Reading your post it seems it was not your fault that the CC wasn't paid, but TfL's. All justice surely demands that TfL cannot benefit from their own errors.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 10:58
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OP, you need to focus.

and have been granted permission to file my Stat Decs Out of Time

Let's see what's what. Your account is vague.

You moved abroad in the car.

So clearly the PCNs relate to before you moved. But you were here before you moved! So there could only be a very, very, narrow window for potential error i.e. after payment should have been made and before the PCNs were served. TfL are normally quick off the mark, so it is implausible that many PCNs could have been missed by you.

And your account doesn't suggest you took the obvious first step which IMO was to contact TfL. Not their agents and not obliquely and probably misleadingly via an OOT.

The sums to which you refer are unconscionable IMO and you should take the matter direct to TfL, not parking but senior management. You are the sausage in their machine, so get back to the machine's operator.
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hartge
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 14:56
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 09:43) *
You definitely need to contact 'bailiffadviceonline' !! Reading your post it seems it was not your fault that the CC wasn't paid, but TfL's. All justice surely demands that TfL cannot benefit from their own errors.

I have just done so.
It seems to me there are no justice. When some of penalties were reissued to the current address, I have tried to challenge them by appealing to the London Tribunal, where adjudicator confirmed the issue was caused by the TFL neglect. However, this can not be used as ground for cancelling a PCN as it didn't matched to the three described reasons.
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hartge
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 15:11
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OP, you need to focus.

and have been granted permission to file my Stat Decs Out of Time

Let's see what's what. Your account is vague.

QUOTE
You moved abroad in the car.

DVLA advised to keep logbook in case whether it need to preduce the logbook during the crossing the border or to register in other country.

QUOTE
So clearly the PCNs relate to before you moved. But you were here before you moved! So there could only be a very, very, narrow window for potential error i.e. after payment should have been made and before the PCNs were served. TfL are normally quick off the mark, so it is implausible that many PCNs could have been missed by you.

Not in the case when Congestion Charge Resident's Discount and AutoPay is valid. The number of charging days the vehicle has travelled within the CC Zone each month is then billed against the account and appropriate charges are collected via the registered payment method.

QUOTE
And your account doesn't suggest you took the obvious first step which IMO was to contact TfL. Not their agents and not obliquely and probably misleadingly via an OOT.

I have come through all TFL's complaint stages. The TFL simply ignored it and make false statements.

The sums to which you refer are unconscionable IMO and you should take the matter direct to TfL, not parking but senior management. You are the sausage in their machine, so get back to the machine's operator.
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Neil B
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 15:35
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 May 2020 - 23:02) *
For us to help here we'd need to sees the documents and timeline

You mention lots of events but I can't see a single date anywhere?

I can't even work out how many PCNs we're talking about. I can't reconcile £664

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 17 May 2020 - 15:38


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hartge
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 21:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 May 2020 - 23:02) *
For us to help here we'd need to sees the documents and timeline

You mention lots of events but I can't see a single date anywhere?

I can't even work out how many PCNs we're talking about. I can't reconcile £664

Hello Neil,

TFL was issued 23 PCNs. You might ask why so many PCN's were issued. Once a vehicle registered for the Congestion Charge (CC) AutopPay and for the CC Resident's Discount a discounted rate of 90% collected each month via the registered payment method (direct debit).
30.10.2018 The car was clamped and towed away . 13.11.2018. The court officer refused all
13.11.2018 - 23 applications of PE2/PE3 were submitted online to the TEC;
30.12.2018 -All applications were refused by the Court Officer of the TEC;
13/01/2019 N244 was filed requested to review the decision made by the Court Officer;
13 of the N244 application were granted and later reissued to the current address. Later 7 of the remained N244 were refused as one of the TEC staff advised they have received my evidence of income ( all evidence was send online).
Finally, I have filed the remained 10 applications N244 asking the Tec to transfer the case to the local Court, where 5 applications were granted in June 2019, 4 applications were refused in August 2109 and January 2020 respectively;
1 remained application was lost ( the Tec confirmed it, the Local Court had never received the case papers, TEC has offered to file a N244 application again.
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Neil B
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 15:27
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QUOTE (hartge @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 22:56) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 May 2020 - 23:02) *
For us to help here we'd need to sees the documents and timeline

You mention lots of events but I can't see a single date anywhere?

I can't even work out how many PCNs we're talking about. I can't reconcile £664

Hello Neil,

TFL was issued 23 PCNs. You might ask why so many PCN's were issued. Once a vehicle registered for the Congestion Charge (CC) AutopPay and for the CC Resident's Discount a discounted rate of 90% collected each month via the registered payment method (direct debit).
30.10.2018 The car was clamped and towed away . 13.11.2018. The court officer refused all
13.11.2018 - 23 applications of PE2/PE3 were submitted online to the TEC;
30.12.2018 -All applications were refused by the Court Officer of the TEC;
13/01/2019 N244 was filed requested to review the decision made by the Court Officer;
13 of the N244 application were granted and later reissued to the current address. Later 7 of the remained N244 were refused as one of the TEC staff advised they have received my evidence of income ( all evidence was send online).
Finally, I have filed the remained 10 applications N244 asking the Tec to transfer the case to the local Court, where 5 applications were granted in June 2019, 4 applications were refused in August 2109 and January 2020 respectively;
1 remained application was lost ( the Tec confirmed it, the Local Court had never received the case papers, TEC has offered to file a N244 application again.

The numbers are still muddled. According to that 13+7+10=23 ???

and I'm lost as to what this means > ?
QUOTE (hartge @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 22:56) *
Later 7 of the remained N244 were refused as one of the TEC staff advised they have received my evidence of income ( all evidence was send online).

How does your income have any bearing on the outcome of an N244?

And for N244s in general, hearings in your local court would require your attendance. So what actually happened at these?

Perhaps most importantly, how have you come to pay the bailiff £7500 ? That still exceeds what you are describing. What is the breakdown?


And what about the proceeds of the sale of the vehicle !??

When was it sold?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 15:48
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OP, will you pl leave your method of presenting info to one side and adopt ours!

'The number of charging days the vehicle has travelled within the CC Zone each month is then billed against the account and appropriate charges are collected via the registered payment method'

And if payment is made by 'the account' or 'registered payment method' then frankly it seems to me that where you were living at the time is not relevant. Unless...

So let's try:
I lived in London or whatever and I registered for **** and **** using autopay or whatever, as I travelled regularly within the CC zone.

I left the UK on **** and (my guess) cancelled my autopay accounts/withdrew all monies from accessible accounts such that when TfL sought to recover the CC etc. charges, payment was declined and consequently TfL issued ** PCNs, one for each day on which CC charges were incurred.

Is this near the truth?

To compound matters, I was not able to respond to the PCNs because I left the UK on ***, hence transferring all funds out of my TfL-accessible accounts. I returned on ***. The *** PCNs were issued in the period *** to ***.

Unbeknown to me, not only did these penalty charges remain unpaid but additional charges accumulated.

I won't chance my arm beyond this point, I just want to get these facts straight first. Then and only then would I feel comfortable with peeling the onion of the accumulated problem.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 16:27
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 18 May 2020 - 16:48) *
OP, will you pl leave your method of presenting info to one side and adopt ours!

'The number of charging days the vehicle has travelled within the CC Zone each month is then billed against the account and appropriate charges are collected via the registered payment method'

And if payment is made by 'the account' or 'registered payment method' then frankly it seems to me that where you were living at the time is not relevant. Unless...

So let's try:
I lived in London or whatever and I registered for **** and **** using autopay or whatever, as I travelled regularly within the CC zone.

I left the UK on **** and (my guess) cancelled my autopay accounts/withdrew all monies from accessible accounts such that when TfL sought to recover the CC etc. charges, payment was declined and consequently TfL issued ** PCNs, one for each day on which CC charges were incurred.

Is this near the truth?

To compound matters, I was not able to respond to the PCNs because I left the UK on ***, hence transferring all funds out of my TfL-accessible accounts. I returned on ***. The *** PCNs were issued in the period *** to ***.

Unbeknown to me, not only did these penalty charges remain unpaid but additional charges accumulated.

I won't chance my arm beyond this point, I just want to get these facts straight first. Then and only then would I feel comfortable with peeling the onion of the accumulated problem.


Well said


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hartge
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 09:15
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QUOTE
The numbers are still muddled. According to that 13+7+10=23 ???

Hi, Let me put this in another way. I do apologise for confusing with number of PCNs. There were 22 fines. I had filed a pe2/pe2 form for all 22 PCNs in one time and sent it to the TEC online. All applications were refused. Then I had filed a N244 online to the TEC asking to review the decision made by the Court Officer.

and I'm lost as to what this means > ?
QUOTE (hartge @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 22:56) *
Later 7 of the remained N244 were refused as one of the TEC staff advised they have received my evidence of income ( all evidence was send online).


QUOTE
How does your income have any bearing on the outcome of an N244?

TEC's requested to provide more info in relation to the X160 (Help with fees) despite the fact all evidence was sent back to the TEC did not accepted 7 applications. So I had to repeat same procedure for 7 PCNs. After that 13 applications were granted, 7 applications were refused (basically, same applications which were resent), 2 applications were lost by TEC, therefore were I had to resend them back to TEC. Later these two applications were refused too.
I have challenged 9 N244's by asking to review with hearing at local court, where 4 cases of N244 were granted, 1 case was lost by TEC (advised the case was sent to the local court, but the local court never received it).

QUOTE
And for N244s in general, hearings in your local court would require your attendance. So what actually happened at these?

I have attended to the court hearings, where I have been told that it was may fault because I have not updated the logbook in accordance with new address. Therefore,the TFL and Bailiffs were right by sending the PCNs and Enfrosmenet Notices to address, where the vehicle was registered.

QUOTE
Perhaps most importantly, how have you come to pay the bailiff £7500 ? That still exceeds what you are describing. What is the breakdown?

I have requested a breakdown fees for several times, but was not given any answers whilst in March 2020 I have filled DSAR request (for the previous one filled in October, 2018 i have been given couple of pictures of my clamped car, no other information)
Based on information provided in the DSAR report the bailiffs requested to pay £323 for 21 cases and £668 for one case. ( total amount £7451)
No other letters/calls/emails form Bailiffs apart their reply for a DSAR Request I never received.


QUOTE
And what about the proceeds of the sale of the vehicle !??


QUOTE
When was it sold?


I don't have any clue. Worth to note, I notified the TFL and Bailiffs about my new current address. The address in the logbook was updated under my new current address. As I said, I had a telephone call from a stranger who confirmed he purchased my car on the Bailiffs auction for cheap. I don't know where he has got my number.

This post has been edited by hartge: Tue, 19 May 2020 - 12:11
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 15:04
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QUOTE (hartge @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 00:00) *
The car was towed away in 2018 and was estimated at £13000.

So the car was towed in 2018 and you just left it in the pound to accumulate storage charges?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 15:55
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Am I misunderstanding. I thought bailiffs could not charge multiple fees when enforcing multiple warrants against the same person and seizing the same goods to satisfy them


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Neil B
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:55) *
Am I misunderstanding. I thought bailiffs could not charge multiple fees when enforcing multiple warrants against the same person and seizing the same goods to satisfy them

They haven't. Compliance fee is applicable to all, then they've applied one enforcement fee and one prep for sale fee.
Figs he's now quoted are correct ---- but I can't understand how all were due if, as he says, some of the N244s were successful?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hartge
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:32
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:04) *
QUOTE (hartge @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 00:00) *
The car was towed away in 2018 and was estimated at £13000.

So the car was towed in 2018 and you just left it in the pound to accumulate storage charges?

I couldn't afford to pay £7451.
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:37
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QUOTE (hartge @ Tue, 19 May 2020 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 May 2020 - 16:04) *
QUOTE (hartge @ Fri, 15 May 2020 - 00:00) *
The car was towed away in 2018 and was estimated at £13000.

So the car was towed in 2018 and you just left it in the pound to accumulate storage charges?

I couldn't afford to pay £7451.

Still, most people would have dealt with it with a great deal of urgency. I suspect bailiff advice online could have got the OOTs prepared and filed within days, hence negating the £13,000 in charges. Normally when someone posts on here it's within a day or two of the car being towed, not two years later.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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