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Notice to Owner received. Contravention 12
chickofallchicks
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 19:33
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Hi all,

i hope this request finds you well and happy...

My friend has pleaded his case to the council which has failed. He has now asked if I know someone who can help him and of course I turn to you guys.

He hoped the PCN would be cancelled as he did not leave the vehicle for longer than 5 minutes but they have completely over-looked this and are sticking to the vehicle not dispalying a valid badge. Southwark policy says that a vehicle is allowed to load/unload for 5 minutes in a residents parking bay although BB holders are not allowed to stop at all. The road has a two hour parking restriction between 12-2pm. He does have a BB which was lost at the time, there was a note in the vehicle window explaining this and he sent them a copy of it but I feel this may be irrelevant.

There are too many aspects in this case, for me to know which way to take it...I am hoping someone has the time to help please...

Links to the original correspondence, the rejection and the NTO.

https://ibb.co/9pkFKXh
https://ibb.co/kx5Ktrb
https://ibb.co/42JzPQL
https://ibb.co/5j3cWZ2
https://ibb.co/k066DZT

Thank you...
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post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 19:33
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 19:50
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This is a situation where if you can supply evidence then they will cancel. Is there anything? They do say within 14 days but they must still consider reps.

The BB is another angle if BB holders are allowed in res bays and a first time failure to display. Is it the driver's BB?

As it's at NTO, nothing to be lost in making reps.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 13 May 2020 - 19:53
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Incandescent
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 19:56
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+1
If possible, please explain to us why their invitation to send a bill or other collateral to back-up the representations seems not to have been done.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 20:52
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OP, this is about restrictions, procedure and evidence.

Your friend said, and the authority's response does not challenge, that parking for the purpose of delivering is permitted.

Your friend then told them that they were delivering but offered no independent evidence, simply a statement that they were. The authority would be forgiven for thinking your friend would say that, wouldn't they!

They offered your friend the opportunity to present further evidence, albeit clumsily expressed (or if not clumsily then potentially fatally should this 'commercial' test be applied at the formal reps stage) but they did nothing. As another poster has said: why? Why should they just take your friend's word for matters?

And what does 'unfortunately the lady is still unwell and I [your friend] have had to stay to care for her' mean?

Pl start with the context, NOT your friend parking. I get the feeling this starts long before e.g. was it just a lucky guess that your friend knew that this lady wanted provisions? Of course not.

I feel there's a compelling if not statutory defence here if only your friend would give us all the facts.

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chickofallchicks
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 21:15
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 20:56) *
+1
If possible, please explain to us why their invitation to send a bill or other collateral to back-up the representations seems not to have been done.


the invitation to send further evidence was not taken up as the person was stuck 300 miles away due to the lockdown and the reply was sent to their home address...
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Incandescent
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 22:15
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QUOTE (chickofallchicks @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 20:56) *
+1
If possible, please explain to us why their invitation to send a bill or other collateral to back-up the representations seems not to have been done.


the invitation to send further evidence was not taken up as the person was stuck 300 miles away due to the lockdown and the reply was sent to their home address...

If the NtO has been received, then send reps on the same basis as before, but include the collateral they asked for in their rejection of the informal reps and state why this had not been done previously, (COVID lockdown). Any reasonable council should then cancel the PCN. One would hope that Southwark are a reasonable council.
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chickofallchicks
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 21:53
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 23:15) *
QUOTE (chickofallchicks @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 22:15) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 20:56) *
+1
If possible, please explain to us why their invitation to send a bill or other collateral to back-up the representations seems not to have been done.


the invitation to send further evidence was not taken up as the person was stuck 300 miles away due to the lockdown and the reply was sent to their home address...

If the NtO has been received, then send reps on the same basis as before, but include the collateral they asked for in their rejection of the informal reps and state why this had not been done previously, (COVID lockdown). Any reasonable council should then cancel the PCN. One would hope that Southwark are a reasonable council.

yes the nto has been received...i shall explain what he needs to do. thanks for your help...
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stamfordman
post Thu, 14 May 2020 - 21:55
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There is still some time before reps need to be made. I suggest you draft here first so we can tweak.
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chickofallchicks
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 02:34
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 May 2020 - 22:55) *
There is still some time before reps need to be made. I suggest you draft here first so we can tweak.


Can I add, that although the council states the warden was present for 5 mins, the evidence shows (photo timings) that the warden was present for 3 mins. My friend is certain he was no longer than 5 mins. Thought i'd mention that but I guess if they are going to let him off with the receipt as evidence, then it doesn't matter?

Something like this perhaps? Very open to someone rewriting it...

Dear Sir/Madam,

Please accept this letter as a formal representation for PCN:

I submitted an informal challenge for this PCN which was rejected. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the rejection. as I had not been at my home address since March 2019. I was visiting friends in London when the PCN was issued and shortly after, I found myself stuck in London due to the COVID 19 lockdown. I had been waiting for an email to arrive from the council and had not been too concerned as the council’s website advised that due to the pandemic, it could take up to 6 weeks to receive a reply.

Upon my return home this week, I discovered the council’s rejection letter, which stated that they would reconsider my case, if I were to send a delivery note or a receipt/invoice as further evidence. I am enclosing the receipt now and hoping that the council will exercise its discretion and accept this late submission. I would have sent it earlier had I been able to.

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cp8759
post Sun, 17 May 2020 - 20:05
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The representation is not late, the deadline is 7 June so there's no need to apologise for sending anything "late". If you bump next week I'll re-draft it for you. Post up the delivery note / receipt or whatever that you're sending to the council.

As an aside, I find it alarming that the lady you were helping was feeling unwell and thought she might have the virus and you went in to reassure her. I really hope you're now keeping your distance from others, for the sake of all of us.


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chickofallchicks
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 21:05) *
The representation is not late, the deadline is 7 June so there's no need to apologise for sending anything "late". If you bump next week I'll re-draft it for you. Post up the delivery note / receipt or whatever that you're sending to the council.

As an aside, I find it alarming that the lady you were helping was feeling unwell and thought she might have the virus and you went in to reassure her. I really hope you're now keeping your distance from others, for the sake of all of us.


thank you so much, that's very kind of you.

i know the formal reps isn't late but the council asked him to send a delivery note or receipt when they replied to his challenge which he didn't do as he didn't receive their reply due to not being at home.

i see where you're coming from but it happened way before the government and media got a strong hold on the story and imposed the rules. social distancing had not been heard of at the time. a group of our friends caught the virus at a christmas party in december and one of them is a doctor so we had prior knowledge of it and were being careful. fortunately, the lady only had a mild case of pneumonia...

i can post the receipt this evening...
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hcandersen
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 11:13
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OP, you've still not touched upon any context. Oh well.

And you're mixing responding to their response to the challenge with making formal reps against the NTO - hence the confusion about lateness: if you want to respond to their request for further info, then of course it's 'late'.

The issue is that this offer has long since lapsed and therefore the only game in town is responding to the NTO.

And as I suspect that the receipt would not prove delivery of anything - how could it, it's a receipt for the purchase of goods, not a delivery note - then you are going to have to put the items in a context...back to that word again!

Condensed milk, Ovaltine, Horlicks, Sanatogen and ginger wine for example, are hardly the staples of young adults!
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chickofallchicks
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 00:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 17 May 2020 - 21:05) *
The representation is not late, the deadline is 7 June so there's no need to apologise for sending anything "late". If you bump next week I'll re-draft it for you. Post up the delivery note / receipt or whatever that you're sending to the council.

As an aside, I find it alarming that the lady you were helping was feeling unwell and thought she might have the virus and you went in to reassure her. I really hope you're now keeping your distance from others, for the sake of all of us.


here's the delivery note that you asked for. are you still able to help with a re-draft? i know it will sound more credible coming from you. thanks so much...
https://ibb.co/cT57gD1
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Gert
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 12:20
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Drivers may park in a resident parking permit bay for as long as necessary, ignore nonsense/folk lore about 2 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes. As long as is necessary - nothing more and nothing less.

The activity has to be continuous and once the activity is complete, the driver is required to relocate the vehicle to a permissible parking place if they need to stay at the premises for ongoing work, or to leave to go on to their next destination. The driver should be allowed time on top of taking the items for such matters as getting their delivery note signed, but not for having a cup of tea or nipping to the loo. Time should be allowed if the address is a penthouse flat rather than the ground floor.

If there is a lot to deliver, multiple trips to and fro may be expected and for the CEO to have seen this IF they have provided any observation time. So if the CEO has issued the PCN with minimal (insufficient) obs time from the first permit check to the last photo, you have an argument there. If the CEO was present for some time, adequate for the distance to the delivery address and what was being transported by hand and driver not seen, and no driver seen your argument is weakened.

So how far was the delivery address from the vehicle? How many trips did the soft fruit take? Was there anything specifically difficult about the journey from van to door - distance due to no spaces immediately nearby, top flat and no lift etc? Your friend needs to show it was necessary for parking there and taking as long as they did, not that it was simply convenient.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 22 May 2020 - 13:01
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I carried the shopping (!) into the house and made sure the lady was safe and well. .. I felt I should go in to reassure her.

And now we have a 'Delivery Note' which resembles a commercial works instruction for goods ordered by *** to be delivered. The order being placed on 10 March, goodness knows when to be delivered, it doesn't say and without further explanation is less than perfect.

So a commercial- looking, unsigned, delivery note, in the context of what, according to the OP's first post and challenge, looks just like someone delivering to a neighbour.

We are still not getting the full picture and I can only think this is because the OP thinks something in a full account might work against them.

Frankly, the extracts above from the challenge have already fired a torpedo into the side of 'delivering only for as long as necessary', but the matter might still be rescued. OP, give us a chance and give the full story.

If not then, other than for procedural matters, I would just pick up on their offer in your reps and apologise for not sending earlier - overtaken by events etc. - but at long last here's the delivery note requested and would they now cancel.

I would be reluctant to give possibly a different officer the opportunity to start from square 1.
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chickofallchicks
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 14:21
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i have never run my own business so i have no idea whether this delivery note is a good or bad one but nonetheless, this is the delivery note the company has given him.

he delivered the fruit to the lady, he carried in the box, he reassured her and he went away again, i don't see why there has to be a secret storyline. didn't we use those up in your fairy tales?

i am back to square one now as i do not know the best way to deal with it. i am thinking about going with what incandescent said...

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 16:16
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The co has a website and is trading so I would send the delivery note the council can check its authenticity. But IMO you need to show you were delivering on behalf of this company

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 25 May 2020 - 16:16


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chickofallchicks
post Today, 14:55
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How does this read please???


Dear Sir/Madam,

Please accept this letter as a formal representation for PCN:

I challenged this PCN back in March and my challenge was rejected. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the rejection. as I had not been at my home address since March 2020. I had been visiting friends in London when the PCN was issued and shortly after, I found myself stuck in London due to the COVID 19 lockdown. I had been waiting for an email to arrive from the council and had not been too concerned about the reply as the council’s website advised that due to the pandemic, it could take up to 6 weeks to receive one.

Upon my return home this week, I discovered the council’s rejection letter which advised me to send a delivery note or a receipt/invoice as further evidence for them to reconsider my case. I have enclosed the delivery note and I apologise for not being able to send it earlier. It shows that I had a delivery in this road on the day in question. I carried the box inside for the lady as she was unwell, I took a little time to reassure her and then I left, all within 5 minutes. I did not see the traffic warden outside and as far as I can tell from the evidence produced, the officer did not wait around for the advised 5 minutes to ascertain that I was loading/unloading. Can you please consider this information when making your decision as it was over-looked when I made the informal challenge? I trust that this, along with the enclosed evidence the council have asked for, will result in the cancellation of this PCN.

Yours faithfully,
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PASTMYBEST
post Today, 15:03
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QUOTE (chickofallchicks @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 15:55) *
How does this read please???


Dear Sir/Madam,

Please accept this letter as a formal representation for PCN:

I challenged this PCN back in March and my challenge was rejected. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the rejection. as I had not been at my home address since March 2020. I had been visiting friends in London when the PCN was issued and shortly after, I found myself stuck in London due to the COVID 19 lockdown. I had been waiting for an email to arrive from the council and had not been too concerned about the reply as the council’s website advised that due to the pandemic, it could take up to 6 weeks to receive one.

Upon my return home this week, I discovered the council’s rejection letter which advised me to send a delivery note or a receipt/invoice as further evidence for them to reconsider my case. I have enclosed the delivery note and I apologise for not being able to send it earlier. It shows that I had a delivery in this road on the day in question. I carried the box inside for the lady as she was unwell, I took a little time to reassure her and then I left, all within 5 minutes. I did not see the traffic warden outside and as far as I can tell from the evidence produced, the officer did not wait around for the advised 5 minutes to ascertain that I was loading/unloading. Can you please consider this information when making your decision as it was over-looked when I made the informal challenge? I trust that this, along with the enclosed evidence the council have asked for, will result in the cancellation of this PCN.

Yours faithfully,


You delivered the box into the premises as required by the customer. Do not mention taking time to reassure, this is not allowed in a commercial delivery


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