PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Possible Illegal Yellow Box Vio (Out of Time statement?)
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:14
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



I've uploaded the Google Maps cache from March 2019 (alleged violation was in April 2019). Looks like one corner doesn't go anywhere near a kerb - is this allowable?

The reason I'm writing up here so late, is that Equita (the debt collection firm) have only just tracked me down at my new address, asking for £278! I sold my car 3 days after the event and then moved house, so had no way of seeing the original notice to owner, nor did I have any way of appealing, or seeing if the notices were sent to me or the dealer I sold the car to.

The violation itself - I was caught in the box behind traffic that got stopped by a downstream traffic light (Barking and Dagenham have pics on their site using the PCN reference sent to me by Equita, but no video).

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 20:00
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:14
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:18
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Forget the contravention - was the paperwork done with DVLA properly at the time of sale. If so an out of time statement should succeed in cancelling the enforcement.

But how soon did you move after selling the car. I presume no mail forwarding - why not?

Post the enforcement letter.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:24
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071





Since I now have to deal with a DRF and not the council, surely I can write to them if the fine is unenforceable from a legal standpoint, or defend in the county court?

The move was immediate, hence I never registered that car at my new address, just my old one. Equita have managed to track me down somehow, despite no communication from the council at my new address.

An out of time statement?

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:29
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:24
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



It's already been to court - the Traffic Enforcement Centre - and you have a bailiff on you.

There is a process to try and stop this and you must follow it. Others will advise.

But post the enforcement letter. It is fortunate that at present bailiffs are not doing visits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DJ Lexy
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:32
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 344
Joined: 7 Sep 2016
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 86,985



It's already gone through court (the TEC). They're the ones who gave the council the permission to send bailiffs after you.

The only way to stop the bailiffs is by filing a successful out-of-time witness statement with the TEC. That's very hard to do, and you only get one chance to do it.

Forget about whether the box goes all the way to the kerb or not. It's irrelevant and won't stop the bailiffs.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:34
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



I just updated my post with the enforcement letter.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 16:38
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,392
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (wiltshired @ Tue, 12 May 2020 - 17:19) *
Since I now have to deal with a DRF and not the council, surely I can write to them if the fine is unenforceable from a legal standpoint, or defend in the county court?


No you can't.

What you can do is to file a statutory declaration out of time but it will be opposed so it will need care and help from people here to have a chance answer any questions fully for the best chance

you will need form PE 2 and PE 3 here

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/t...nt-centre-forms


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 17:21
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



I'm pretty sure now from checking my diaries, this is a DVLA reg details cock up on my part. I had already moved into my new flat and had plans to sell that car, which were set back. So I was driving it for 20 days at my new address, and the PCN etc must have been sent to my old house. I remember that old car being in the garage here for a few weeks.

Since it's my error, is there any point filing these forms? And do I have any case to appeal the full amount even if I am successful (other than the side benefit of reducing the fine to the original amount i.e. fundamental errors on their part such as lack of video, box layout).

In the present circumstances, Crapita must be offering some rather lenient repayment arrangements, no?

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 17:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 18:16
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



You may as well try the OOT as it's free and time is on your side in lockdown. The OOT is designed for situations where there is a fairly short time between a move and a car sale or update of the V5C. Don't fill in the forms without help here.

There is no point in discussing the contravention until you are successful with an OOT.

The £278 is made up of PCN £130 + £65 charge certificate + £8 debt registration + £75 compliance fee so you stand to only pay £130 or possibly £65 at discount if successful with OOT and nothing if the reissued PCN is successfully challenged.

What is the reg of the car?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 18:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 18:52
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



Ok, so I'll wait for some more feedback.

In layman terms, my justification for not having submitted a CoA at that point was that the car was to be sold as soon as I had the time after moving 3/4 weeks prior (made necessary by the ULEZ changes happening at the time), so sending off for new forms might have delayed the sale and caused me to rack up a load of ULEZ charges.

YS62CJJ

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:00
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:00
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



V5C was last updated - 29 May 2019

Do you know dates of contravention and PCN? If in April this is close.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:01
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:16
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



Yep, that makes sense. The crooks who bought it off me had it listed as sold by then, see link above. The date of contravention was 27/04/19 17.10. Unfortunately no date for PCN on Dagenham's website.

The car was sold to trade on 30 April... so thats why I thought the council may have even sent everything off to the car flippers in Dunstable. But if that's true, why have I been found liable and why has it taken the wisdom of Crapita to track me down?

Contravention: was 27/04/19 17.10.

PCN: Unknown, not on the Dagenham website.

Sold to traders: 30/04/19.

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:22
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



The other key date is when you moved. The PCN may not have gone out for 2-3 weeks after the contravention. This assumes that the V5C had your correct address before you moved.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 19:27
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



Diary says I returned keys on 29 March, so I had definitely already moved at that point. I had not sent off for new forms, as that would have impeded my sale of the vehicle, which was to take place ASAP to put me in line with ULEZ.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 21:08
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,725
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



I would say that 20 days at the new address but the old one on the V5 is reasonable for an OOT to be accepted, bearing in mind that if you had sent off the V5 the same day you moved it may not have even been changed by DVLA inside 3 weeks, they can take longer so you would still have missed getting the PCN. The only problem is the council can oppose your OOT and if they do, TEC officers have the very unfortunate practice of rejecting the OOT. They should not do this just because a council objects, but do. So you would then have to ask for a review by a county court judge, and this costs £100 or £255 if you ask for an interview with the judge. Neither is reimbursible. If it were me, I'd submit the OOT and see what happens first, then you can make a decision.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 12 May 2020 - 21:09
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 12 May 2020 - 22:45
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,032
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



You need to word your OOT very carefully and understand what it is. You must run any draft past us before filing.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 09:22
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,707
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



So OP, the sequence of events is..we'll come to the reasons and motives later:

You moved;
You did not update your DVLA details;
You did not put in place mail redirection or management arrangements;
You committed the contravention;
You sold the car;
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 09:37
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,392
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 13 May 2020 - 10:22) *
So OP, the sequence of events is..we'll come to the reasons and motives later:

You moved;
You did not update your DVLA details;
You did not put in place mail redirection or management arrangements;
You committed the contravention;
You sold the car;


not that black and white. the time of each action is equally important


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 12:30
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,707
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



One step at a time biggrin.gif

Until we receive the full, relatively simple and few, facts then I'll pass on what action I could suggest that the OP might take.

At present the what and when is not clear and is further muddied by why.

OP, what and when first, then we can look at why.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
wiltshired
post Wed, 13 May 2020 - 14:26
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 24
Joined: 26 Sep 2018
Member No.: 100,071



Keys returned to estate agent in Shepherds Bush: 29/03/19.

Move to Vauxhall complete: 30/03/19.

Details were not changed with the DVLA at this point, as the ULEZ start date was 8 April 19, by which I time intended to sell the diesel vehicle (at least as a matter of urgency), and changing the documents would have prevented sale. It was late in the month by which time I had furnished my apartment and found a possible part exchange.

Contravention: was 27/04/19 17.10.

PCN date: Unknown, not on the Dagenham website. They DID confirm today that it was sent to Shepherds Bush, so that's why I missed it.

Sold to traders in part exchange: 30/04/19.

This post has been edited by wiltshired: Wed, 13 May 2020 - 14:30
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 2nd June 2020 - 01:48
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.