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Redbridge - Code 11 - paid using app in South Woodford, Silly mistake or grounds to contest?
samosa111
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 13:05
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Helpful souls

I am back here seeking your help.

The council's sign said "Pay By Phone" (see below for photo) so I opened the app and paid for parking in South Woodford (Redbridge).

However on returning to the vehicle I discovered a PCN (front and back of ticket is linked below).

I contacted Redbridge via their portal on 19th February explaining they have made a mistake and I provided evidence from the Pay By Phone app that I had paid for parking. But they have written back on 23rd March (received on 28th March) that Redbridge use a company named "Ringo", not "Pay By Phone" and that I must pay the fine.

I now realise that I may have used the incorrect app to pay for parking, but I only did so after following the instructions on their sign which referred to "Pay By Phone" and this is the name of the app I used.


Where do I stand now? Do I have any grounds to challenge this or shall I just pay up the discounted £30 (soon to be £60)?


PCN - click here

Photo of council sign (taken by the CEO) - click here

Copy of rejection letter from Redbridge - click here



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post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 13:05
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stamfordman
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 13:34
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If you used location 7176 on paybyphone you would have bought parking in the Eight Bells car park in Newbury. Did you not notice this?

I do take issue with the sign saying Pay by Phone with a capital p for phone as it obviously fooled you.
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samosa111
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 14:03
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 14:34) *
If you used location 7176 on paybyphone you would have bought parking in the Eight Bells car park in Newbury. Did you not notice this?

I do take issue with the sign saying Pay by Phone with a capital p for phone as it obviously fooled you.



To be honest I didnt notice the address on the App. It was a new location for me (not parked there before) and the sign said Pay By Phone so I didn't think anything of it. There were no visible machines nearby which would have had the appropriate App's details displayed. Equally I would have paid by cash if there had been a machine there.

Like you, I feel Redbridge should take responsibility for their misleading signage which lead me to use the incorrect app. As you can see, I have paid for parking, albeit using the wrong app. It was NOT the case that I was attempting to avoid paying. Had the Council erected signage been clearer, I would have used Ringo.

What do you suggest I do... pay up or fight all the way?

This post has been edited by samosa111: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 14:04
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stamfordman
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 14:33
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Where did you park - there are at least two machines along the Shubberies on the side you seem to be on but I only see a Ringgo sign standing out on this one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5937801,0.0...6384!8i8192

any more council pics?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 14:46
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hcandersen
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 15:29
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You've challenged; it's been rejected; you have until 6 Apr to pay the discount after which the penalty reverts to its full value and the owner may be sent a NTO.

Who is the owner and are their DVLA details current?

. It was a new location for me (not parked there before)

So how could you know the tariff?

Anyway, the key issue is in their response and stamfordman's post: were there machines in this parking place? The sign you posted states 'pay here at machine'. You could not know the location without reading the sign and if a machine was at the sign and it referred to RingGo then what odds would you place on your chances of convincing an adj that it was the authority's fault?
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stamfordman
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 15:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 16:29) *
So how could you know the tariff?



With pay by phone you select the location and a time and it calculates payment which is then put on your card.

In an ideal world someone should have said - 'We must ban a company calling itself PayByPhone.'
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Incandescent
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 17:23
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I think if it were me, I'd take them all the way for a misleading sign. Pay by Phone is a title not a method.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:17
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:23) *
I think if it were me, I'd take them all the way for a misleading sign. Pay by Phone is a title not a method.



I've just checked the bays signs near me in Hackney and Islington on GSV and they all say Pay by phone with a lower case p.

It would indeed be interesting to pursue this but not our money.

In London, boroughs that use PayByPhone rather than Ringgo or another system include Nehwam and Waltham Forest, both of which border Redbridge.

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samosa111
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:23
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 15:33) *
Where did you park - there are at least two machines along the Shubberies on the side you seem to be on but I only see a Ringgo sign standing out on this one:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5937801,0.0...6384!8i8192

any more council pics?

]

The link you have shared is much further down the street.

I was parked closer to the meter which has no Ringo signs on it whatsoever. The absence of any stickers on the meter means I had no way of knowing Ringo was to be used. My only instructions were the ones that are only post where I had parked (the image of which I have shared in opening post).

Give it to me .... what are my chances of winning this at adjudication?



I have attached an image showing my location

parking location... click here

My tariff was automatically picked up by the app.

I do concur with one of the other posts in which the misleading capitalisation of Pay By Phone is written in such a manner that it makes it sound like this is the App they are referring to.

This post has been edited by samosa111: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:29
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nextdoor
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 20:37
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:17) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 18:23) *
I think if it were me, I'd take them all the way for a misleading sign. Pay by Phone is a title not a method.



I've just checked the bays signs near me in Hackney and Islington on GSV and they all say Pay by phone with a lower case p.

It would indeed be interesting to pursue this but not our money.

In London, boroughs that use PayByPhone rather than Ringgo or another system include Nehwam and Waltham Forest, both of which border Redbridge.


Three random timeplates in Redbridge all with lower case 'p'
Snakes Lane West:
https://goo.gl/maps/sGXnR3dLZv7ZCtaU9

Inman'sRow
https://goo.gl/maps/QombPXyNtjaY6fnW9

High Road Woodford
https://goo.gl/maps/P6rv8CzZ14wUwZQj7


Actually the other timeplates in the Shubberies and the rest of George Lane all have lower case'p'

just that one has upper case.

This post has been edited by nextdoor: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 20:42
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stamfordman
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 21:00
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Good spots. If the OP is up for some fun and as it's only a £30 gamble he could have a go at this. Clearly Redbridge has mis-signed here and the OP was misled. Was he misled enough in terms of diligence? My objection is failure to check the booked session.

OP - where else have you used the Paybyphone app?
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nextdoor
post Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 21:10
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QUOTE (nextdoor @ Mon, 30 Mar 2020 - 20:37) *
Actually the other timeplates in the Shubberies and the rest of George Lane all have lower case'p'

just that one has upper case.


Correction: 2 timeplates have lower case, 2 have upper case. OP 's photo of where he parked is right by lower case timeplate.


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spaceman
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:31
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1. IMO the sign is not misleading. Nowhere on it does it mention paying by app.

2. The 'PayByPhone' app is all one word.

IMO more than this will be needed if it ends up before an adjudicator.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:31
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stamfordman
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 12:45
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I agree it's thin but it's all I have. But:

- the sign the council cites is one with a cap P
- Pay by Phone is the name of a system not an app and one used in neighbouring boroughs
- That the company write it as one word is by the by (or By)



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hcandersen
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 14:12
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. The permitted variants at item 2 apply
2. “Pay at machine” may be varied to any of the following or any appropriate combination of the following—
(a) “Pay here at machine”
(b) “Pay at machine across road”
© “Pay at machine opposite”
(d) “Pay at machine” and a location
(e) “Pay at” and a description of the ticket machine in any coloured letters
(f) “Display ticket”
(g) “Pay by phone” and a telephone number and “or text” and a text number and “quoting location” and a location number
(h) “Pay by phone” and a telephone number and “quoting location” and a location number


So, the permitted variant carries a lower case 'p'. Big deal! It's got substantial compliance written all over it.

The sign also says 'pay by phone'. This is an instruction. The OP did not call this number by their own admission, they just chose to act upon selective parts of the sign.

The absence of any stickers on the meter means I had no way of knowing Ringo was to be used. My only instructions were the ones that are only post where I had parked (the image of which I have shared in opening post).

But you did, you were told to use the phone number on the sign which is......RingGo.

No hope at adjudication but, hey ho, it's not my money.

OP, where are the authority's photos. We've got circumstantial evidence and GSV coming out of our ears, but we need the real evidence.

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cp8759
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 14:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 15:12) *
OP, where are the authority's photos. We've got circumstantial evidence and GSV coming out of our ears, but we need the real evidence.

+1


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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samosa111
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 14:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 15:36) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 15:12) *
OP, where are the authority's photos. We've got circumstantial evidence and GSV coming out of our ears, but we need the real evidence.

+1



As requested here are all the photos provided by Redbridge Council



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samosa111
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:09
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I've uploaded the photos from the local authority (link in the past above). Any further suggestions?
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hcandersen
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:34
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So the location is o/s no.5, Haskins etc. solicitors.

The photo states: pay here at machine;
GSV states: pay here at machine.

The parking place extends only for the frontage of the solicitors; GSV shows there is only one traffic sign; it is the ONLY sign which applies.

Is there a machine(I ask because the photos do not show this angle)?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 07:35
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samosa111
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 11:27
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 08:34) *
So the location is o/s no.5, Haskins etc. solicitors.

The photo states: pay here at machine;
GSV states: pay here at machine.

The parking place extends only for the frontage of the solicitors; GSV shows there is only one traffic sign; it is the ONLY sign which applies.

Is there a machine(I ask because the photos do not show this angle)?




I've uploaded a video which explains this better. Hope this helps. Click here to view

This post has been edited by samosa111: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 11:31
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