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PCN 50R for making illegal right turn when left turn was blocked, Appealed unsuccessfully but council made a horlicks of rejection?
risingson
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:33
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Hi everybody

I received a PCN for making a right turn at a "no right turn" T junction - but there was utility replacement work taking place shortly after any left
turn I could have made.

I've already tried a first appeal to this - and didn't dispute that there was a left turn only sign painted on the road approaching the junction and two
sets of no right turn signs (the later set were partially obscured by recently planted shrubs, the earlier set are visible). There wasn't a no right turn
sign facing me whilst I waited at the T junction (but I'm not sure there has to be). The reason for my appeal was the impracticability of turning left.
This is the view looking left at the junction a few weeks after the incident - the position of the "trench" has moved on, but judging by the relaid
tarmac, it began about 20 metres after the left turn I'm expected to have made.
Attached Image


I've been provided with video evidence showing me pulling up with my car angled to turn left. I then notice the "road ahead closed" signs, open out
the steering and turn right instead. The rear of one of the "road ahead closed" signs held down with sandbags is visible in the video evidence.
Here are two stills from the video:
Attached Image

Attached Image


Here was the PCN:
Attached Image


Attached Image


And the result of my first appeal:
Attached Image

Attached Image


The council appears to be arguing that there was enough space after turning left for me to do an immediate U turn. Or that the road only became a full
closure further down - you can see from the freshly laid tarmac where the trench was that it was initially blocked only on the left hand (i.e. my) side, so
it appears I could have gone down the right side of the road (against oncoming traffic) and then taken the next right - they're only willing to admit to the
road being "closed" after this point (which I believe it then was - utility works digging up both sides of the road).

On the actual day I recall there being other cars doing U turns in the area just to the left of the junction, but they had already travelled down the main
road (i.e. across my bonnet where I was waiting). As this was going on it wasn't that easy to see that I could drive on the wrong side of the road and turn
right later on either. I just decided that there was no point turning left at all and made a right turn. (The lack of a "no right turn" sign right in front of me
to remind me not to didn't help here.)

I'm assuming that the traffic adjudicator may have no choice but to conclude the offence was technically committed although I think this is pretty sharp
practice by the council in the circumstances? However would any of these (or any other suggestions please) be grounds for appeal?

- Their notice of rejection now says the PCN was sent because the CCTV showed me making a left turn which was not allowed?
- They go on to say that a motorist should have turned left and would then have been instructed to turn around by the "road closed" signage. Are they
splitting hairs here given that there is a "road ahead closed" sign right at the junction itself? They haven't demonstrated if there was another "road closed"
sign and seem to be denying that there is any signage at all in the CCTV evidence - yet the reverse of what I think was the "road ahead closed" sign is
clearly visible.
- I've now noticed that there is some sort of bizarre formatting issue going on in their letter of rejection. The traffic adjudicator's logo is overprinted on
both pages of the rejection letter. But I haven't gone to the adjudicator yet - aren't they meant to be an independent next stage? They can't even correctly
state the offence in their rejection and are then misrepresenting this as a rejection by the traffic adjudicator - is this amateur hour?

Many thanks for your thoughts!

This post has been edited by risingson: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 21:50
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post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:33
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stamfordman
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:38
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Post the video and all the documents.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.
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risingson
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 00:09
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Hi - thanks very much for reading my post Stamfordman!

The video shows little more than the stills they also provided - so not being very accomplished at Youtube I've attached the stills here. The originals really were as grainy as what's shown.

You can see the position of the camera which took the CCTV/stills on the lamp post in the photo I took facing the other way. How thoughtful of them not to take video of the pandemonium in the opposite direction!

I also attach the PCN and appeal rejection. I'm thinking the main issue is how sloppy they've been with the rejection for the reasons I've highlighted.

Look forward to your thoughts!
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 10:41
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Get on to the council and ask why they have not included a web code so you can appeal online


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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 11:07
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Let's see the video - PM me the details and I'll post it.
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cp8759
post Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 08:18
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I can't fault the signage: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4185887,-...6384!8i8192

Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman so we can sort out the video.


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risingson
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 21:56
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Hello thanks all for the offers to upload the video for me. I have managed to educate myself in the ways of Vimeo so here goes:
Video

In case you're wondering I haven't cropped the beginning - it doesn't show me pulling up or how long I was there.

Yes I don't think there is an issue with the signage, and what I'm worried about is that the adjudicator will have to agree that technically the offence was committed? To what extent will they be able to look at the sign on the pavement (only the reverse of which can be seen), take into account that the council has provided no camera from the opposite angle, and give me the benefit of the doubt?

And as a secondary issue, has the council failed to clearly explain why my appeal has been rejected? (I don't know if that is a ground to challenge the whole ticket, or they should be asked to correct their errors?)

Thanks

This post has been edited by risingson: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 22:08
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 10:34
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Having seen the video and had a look around the area, there is a diversion route that would be about 600 metres if the council argue this as they seem to be I think you would lose if the discount is still available that would be my advice


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stamfordman
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 11:20
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So what did the sign say? The council states there was nothing on the CCTV showing a sign saying the road was closed. The rest of the letter is also a bit of a joke.
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risingson
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 09:32
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Hi, if you compare the photo I took several weeks after the incident: the position of the roadworks had moved further away from the junction, but it looks like they'd left "road ahead closed" signs at that point (probably to give traffic coming down the main road the option to turn down the road I was emerging from).

In my photo several weeks later there are two signs, but in the video facing the other way at the time of the incident it appears there's only the rear of one sign. I can't recall what it said on the reverse as I don't think it's likely I would have reacted any differently whether it said "road closed" or "road ahead closed". The later photo suggests it's likely to have been"road ahead closed", or am I being too generous to the council here? I don't know whether these sort of signs are erected by the council or the utility workers themselves. The council's provided no footage looking the other way so it hasn't proven what the sign said at the time?

In denying the existence of signage in the video at all there are two possible conclusions about the council's view:
- they're blind, or
- they believe it was a "road ahead closed" sign and i should just have ignored that one as it wasn't "road closed".

It's not entirely clear what they mean as their letter is so poor. If it's the latter, I don't think that's how the brain works when you pull up to a junction and encounter the sign at the same time as you're making a decision to turn into the main road, but I don't know if the adjudicator will see it that way?

I'm just as concerned that the rejection letter accuses me of turning left rather than right, and has the adjudicator's logo at the top! Thoughts?

Many thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by risingson: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 09:46
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mickR
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 10:00
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QUOTE (risingson @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 09:32) *
Hi, if you compare the photo I took several weeks after the incident:

In my photo several weeks later there are two signs,


Photos????
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 11:39
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Can you persuade an adjudicator that turning rigt rather than left was an inconvenience to you ?


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madandy
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:51
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Looking at that video it seems the council missed a trick there of doing you for stopping on the box!!
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risingson
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 15:16
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To clarify, the first photo in the original post is how it looked a few weeks after the incident. That's what I'm referring to as my photo of the scene. The only footage on the date of the incident is the council's video footage.

There is a discounted fee of £65? It looks like I have until close of play tomorrow, 3 April to pay it (although that depends on what "date of service" means - they also emailed the rejection on the date of the notice). So any gut impression people have before this date would be appreciated.

After that point it goes up to £130. If I appeal and lose I'm apparently given a further opportunity to pay £130 within 28 days - is that right? After that it may go up to £195.

Will I have a further opportunity to contest it if I lose the appeal - e.g. if I'm taken to court is it open and shut or can I enter a defence? Just curious about the options.

Thanks

This post has been edited by risingson: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 19:52
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:43
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I note your post in the sticky file of cases wrong place to post that but use this site

https://londontribunals.org.uk/


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mickR
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 17:52
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looking at your pic, I would suggest emerging from the side road and see "road ahead closed" signs and road works immediately behind, I to would have taken the view a right turn was the only option.
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risingson
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 19:29
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 18:43) *
I note your post in the sticky file of cases wrong place to post that but use this site

https://londontribunals.org.uk/


Pastmybest - thanks. I thought it might prompt someone to edit the out of date weblink (if that is possible).
And MickR - thanks. Needless to say I agree with you - but see UPDATE below.

I have found a few other offences on the register at this location including someone who claimed they saw a fight in the road to the left and turned right. What the adjudicator said was interesting - Mr. X's explanation for committing the contravention would amount only to mitigation. The Enforcement Authority may cancel a PCN as a matter of their discretion but Adjudicators have no power to direct cancellation on the basis of mitigating circumstances.

There was another PCN at this location where the motorist claimed (at a completely different time) that there was a "diversion" in place. The adjudicator appeared to consider whether there was in fact a diversion but wasn't satisfied there was. I'm not sure whether this does or doesn't mean my point will be fully considered by the adjudicator? It seems that unless the adjudicator agrees the offence was not committed (because the temporary road closure nullifies the no right turn), they will enforce it as they can't allow mitigating arguments. Is that right?

Is this still my strongest ground, or should I instead/also argue that the letter of rejection has manifestly failed to deal with my representations? The relevant part of my appeal was:
"I attach a photo taken on 8 February looking left from the junction and showing the "road closed" sign which is still there [I should have written 'road ahead closed']. The reverse of this sign is plainly visible in the footage you provided. In my photo a recently resurfaced part of the road is shown beginning about 20m after the junction and *before* the next available turn off from Merton Road to the right (Pelham Road, shown by the white car in the photo). The roadworks have been progressing and my recollection is that on 26 January they were closer to the Quicks Road junction [where I was] than they currently are (as noted by the resurfaced tarmac)."

The council's response to this is as follows - quote from the image I've posted at the start:
"We sent you a PCN because our CCTV camera evidence shows your vehicle making a left turn [HELLO?] that was not allowed. The 'no left turn' sign is round, with a red border and white background. On it is a black line pointing to the left with a red line though it meaning 'no left turn'.
You can view online at...
I note your comments, however, I can confirm that there was nothing prohibiting the left turn from Quicks Road into Merton Road. Merton Road itself was closed at the junction of Kingston Road, and as such motorist would have turned left and then been instructed to turn around by the Road Closed signage.

Furthermore, I must inform you that there is no CCTV footage to support your representations that there was a sign instructing motorist that the road was closed.'


Anyone can make a typo, but referring to the fact that I shouldn't have turned *left* instead of right, THREE times? And saying that there's no CCTV showing signage that the road was closed when that's plainly because the CCTV is facing the wrong way and showing the reverse of the sign?

UPDATE: I've just realised the appearance of resurfaced tarmac in my photo is an anti-skid surface for a pelican crossing, as it's also in a May 2019 streetview photo. But *despite this* I think I've come across some quite good evidence on the online "nextdoor" forum that the sign I would have seen at the time of the offence may well have been a 'road closed' sign. There is an exchange of letters between a councillor and the local authority, dated before the offence, because these roadworks seem to have been the bane of local residents' lives. In this the council chastises vehicles that have driven past the '6 Road Closure signs that are in place' and says it's requesting further signs be put up on the Broadway, which is a continuation of Kingston Road but even further away from the roadworks than where I turned on to it! This was a response to the councillor complaining that 'There is no signage of 'road closed' [on the Broadway] until you're on Merton Road...At the moment, the signs outside St Winefride Church on Merton Road, one sign says 'Road Closed' and the next sign says 'Diversion' with an arrow pointing right. There are no roads directly to the right...' Said church is again further away from the roadworks than I was turning, so surely this pretty good evidence that the sign in my photo (which says 'road ahead closed') may well have said 'road closed' at the time of the offence?

This post has been edited by risingson: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 19:47
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risingson
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 19:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 12:39) *
Can you persuade an adjudicator that turning rigt rather than left was an inconvenience to you ?


I now realise what you're getting at. Yes, we were heading to a DIY store - I think - that was due south of that location. So if it looked possible to turn left, I would definitely have done so. (We did eventually make it to the store so we may have a receipt from there.)

I said in my appeal that I approached the junction with the intention of turning left and the council said in reply (as in pic above): 'So, whilst I note it was not your intention to contravene the restrictions blah blah blah'
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Incandescent
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:21
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By emphasising "No Left Turn" and apparently making a horlicks of the whole reply, it comes down to a "failure to consider" (IMHO anyway). However, if you want a final decision unbiased by the cash earnings potential for the council, you'd have to take it to London Tribunals and risk the full PCN. If you're up for it then have a go. It'll now be months before your case will be heard, so plenty of time to save up the additional cost. It all depends on whether you're a gambling man or not.
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cp8759
post Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:57
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QUOTE (risingson @ Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 20:29) *
...Said church is again further away from the roadworks than I was turning, so surely this pretty good evidence that the sign in my photo (which says 'road ahead closed') may well have said 'road closed' at the time of the offence?

Well if you want to raise this as an issue, it would be for the council to rebut this for example, by providing a signage log showing what signs were displayed.


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