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Back to NTO, is late response still valid?, Bailiffs called off, but council will issue new NTO
Buzzed
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:03
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Hi, I would be grateful for any advice.

My son received a bus lane ticket for a bus lane which was poorly sign-posted. The signage has been previously declared insufficient by the tribunal.

He appealed the ticket, received an auto-response and then never heard back. Long story short, he had moved house and they had sent it to the wrong address - this was accepted by the Traffic Enforcement Centre and the bailiffs were called off and subsequently, due to the council not responding, before the deadline, the TEC has found in my son's favour. The council have said they will reissue the NTO.

The response to my son's formal representations was sent way after the deadline.

If they are now issuing a new NTO, does their 'Procedural Impropriety' (late issuing the rejection notice) still count?

He can go for the fact that the signage was unclear, but it would be good if we could include the Procedural Impropriety too.

Has anyone experience of this or know if you can use this, once they issue a new NTO?

Also, does anyone happen to know how long the council have to issue a new NTO, after the TEC issues their decision to accept the PE3? He's been told on the phone that they've found in his favour, but he's not had anything through the post yet.

Many thanks in advance smile.gif

This post has been edited by Buzzed: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:06
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post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:03
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:08
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No you are right of track there is no time limit for bus lanes nor no NTO best to post all docs


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Buzzed
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:56
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Thanks - yes, I see you are right - no exact time frame. Never mind, he will have to stick to arguing against the signage.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 19:04
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Well there IS a duty on them to act fairly and in a timely manner, but you have posted no dates so we can't advise further until we know these.
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Neil B
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 19:18
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QUOTE (Buzzed @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:03) *
The council have said they will reissue the NTO.

From what you've told us they are wrong.

QUOTE (Buzzed @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:03) *
The response to my son's formal representations was sent way after the deadline.

Try and be clear in your story.
What representations?

What response? Did he get one?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Buzzed
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:06
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Thanks for your responses.

They took 127 days to respond to the formal representations that he made to them upon receiving the PCN by post for being in a Bus Lane.

They said they rejected his representations, as the bus lane was clearly marked and in compliance with the Traffic Signs Regulations - however, just one week before my son was photographed in this lane, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal had judged that this lane was not clearly signposted. The council responded by saying the signage had been approved and they intended to keep it as it is.

The first he knew that his representations to the council had been rejected, was a letter from the bailiffs. He went through the process of getting them called off (the council was using the wrong address, even after the bailiffs found him at his new address and even though he had updated his driving licence and log book.) This was accepted by the Traffic Enforcement Centre - they told him the council had not responded, so they found in my son's favour.

I believe the council can cancel the PCN, issue a new notice to owner or refer to the tribunal? Is that not right? My son rang the council to see what they were going to do and to check they had the right address (last time he rang, they still were using the old one, even though they had been updated). They said they were going to issue a new NTO.

My son is waiting for the official notification from the TEC, but he is expecting a new notice from the council. Does that sound right?

Thanks again smile.gif
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Neil B
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:18
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QUOTE (Buzzed @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:06) *
but he is expecting a new notice from the council. Does that sound right?

No.
What box did he tick on PE2 ?

and what council and bus lane are we talking about?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:20


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:01
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QUOTE (Buzzed @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 20:06) *
They said they rejected his representations, as the bus lane was clearly marked and in compliance with the Traffic Signs Regulations -

How do you know this?

I'm sorry so many questions but you have a knack of telling us snippets.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Buzzed
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:17
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Thanks

We now know what they said and when they sent it, as he did a subject access request.

He ticked the box saying he made representations about the PCN within 28 days but did not receive a rejection notice.

It was on the Bath Road in Bristol.
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Slapdash
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:32
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Where abouts on the bath road ? There are a lot of bus lanes there. Various bits from the park and ride all the way to temple meads. Some going in. Some going out. Some with timed restriction quite a lot 24-7.

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:33
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Buzzed
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:37
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Think it's this one:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-...th-road-2611086
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:44
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Just before the park and ride? I have written an appeal for this place that won, and there is more than the one ground of appeal unless Bristol have amended their documents.

When we see them I can tell you


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mickR
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:45
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As asked in post #2. Please post all documents redacted only personal details.
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Neil B
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 10:12
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QUOTE (Buzzed @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 21:17) *
He ticked the box saying he made representations about the PCN within 28 days but did not receive a rejection notice.

Ok, that's easy then.
They cannot send him a new PCN (let us know if they do). They must refer the matter to the adjudicator for directions.
This normally results in a hearing and you will be invited to add further submissions -- at which point note PMB's comments.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 11:56
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He was served with a postal PCN, therefore this was addressed correctly, yes.

Reps were made which required the owner to state their address, effectively if different from the PCN e.g. the PCN might have been redirected etc.

You say: he had moved house and they had sent it to the wrong address ..

This being the NOR, therefore this was sent after he moved and after reps were made? (DVLA is irrelevant because we know that the authority would use the first address obtained from them as they're not obliged to keep rechecking, in fact in this case why should they, your son had ample opportunity and was obliged to correct them if any document received had the 'wrong' address)

But if the NOR was addressed incorrectly - and clearly no redirection arrangements were in place! - then so was the Order for Recovery, therefore you had to have submitted an Out of Time statutory declaration in which the owner's current address for service is stipulated.

In short, we need dates of notices, relevant facts for each aspect, in particular the address on the PCN (call it A), when your son told the authority that another address (B) should be used and the council's objection to your OOT, which of course would have been sent by post to the new address put in your OOT!

It is not a free run to adjudication because, as we have seen recently, adjudicators will use their powers to investigate procedural matters before even registering an appeal, and there is no guarantee you would even get to appeal if the fault lay with your son in not advising the authority of a different address for service. I'm not saying this applies because at present we just don't know.
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