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Islington NTO and PCN for alleged parking infringement in a Zipcar Flex, Parking Fine
loelopsky
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:17
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Hi there,

I have been the following email from ZipCar on 24/03/2020:

----------------

Dear Name,

We have received a parking violation following your reservation that took place ‍24th Jan 12:26pm - 24th Jan 12:33pm (ticket number IZ14244350‍).

After receiving this Notice, we paid the violation on your behalf, to ensure that our vehicle was free of any obligations and ready to be reserved by our fellow members.

The cost of the violation was £130.00, which we have applied to your account along with a £15 processing fee to cover the cost of receiving, reviewing and paying the violation on your behalf.

For more information on our violations policy, please visit our Help Centre. Use the search box to ask a question or type in a key word to find the relevant article.

Kind regards,

The Zipcar Team

Attachment(s)
IZ14244350 (2).pdf
IZ14244350_p2.PNG
IZ14244350_p1.PNG


----------------------------------------

I have two main queries around this:

1) Is where the car was parked a parking infringement?

There is a clear parking bay drawn on the road, which yes does have a yellow line along the back of it, but the sign next to the bay states "No Parking on Match Days". To confirm there was no match for 3 week after this fine, so this shouldn't be the issue. The bays next to the bay that this car was parked in would have been fine for a ZipCar Flex to be parked in.

This is the parking bay:

Attached Image


2) Should Zipcar have paid this infringement on my behalf and then charge me for it?

I have read around on the forums that I should request that ZipCar transfer ownership of the notice rather than pay the fine themselves and charge me. Also the parking fine was £130 which seems very high. I'm assuming that this is because they did not pay this within the initial window.

It has taken them 2 months exactly to send this on to me.

Thanks in advance.
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post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:17
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Incandescent
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:24
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It's all down to what your agreement with ZIP says. Sometimes the small print really does need to be read before signing-up.

Other thing is - whatever happened to the PCN that the photo of the front of the car shows as attached to your windscreen ? The first Zip knew about this was when they received a Notice to Owner, at which point the discount option is lost.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:32
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:48
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OP----where you parked is a market traders bay so you need a special permit I would guess you are bang to rights.

The real issue is --was there a PCN on the vehicle? Zipcar have no way of knowing so when they got the NTO they paid up.

Now why on earth should you pay the full penalty when the hire company had time to respond to the NTO and identify you as the hirer? Sheer laziness and incompetence on the part of ZipCar and no customer care.

I don't know how you paid but if it was by card I would consider a chargeback. Otherwise tell Zipcar to reduce the penalty because they should have named you as the hirer and then you could have appealed (not sure on what grounds but you have had that option stymied by the ZipCar actions). Plus the fact that if the Council rejected the appeal they would most likely reoffer the discount.


Mick
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loelopsky
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:55
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Thanks @Incadescent,

I will dispute the charge, but it would be good to know if the parking is an official infringement or not based on the parking signs by the bay which can be see clearly on streetview here.

Does anyone have a view on this?



QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:48) *
OP----where you parked is a market traders bay so you need a special permit I would guess you are bang to rights.

The real issue is --was there a PCN on the vehicle? Zipcar have no way of knowing so when they got the NTO they paid up.

Now why on earth should you pay the full penalty when the hire company had time to respond to the NTO and identify you as the hirer? Sheer laziness and incompetence on the part of ZipCar and no customer care.

I don't know how you paid but if it was by card I would consider a chargeback. Otherwise tell Zipcar to reduce the penalty because they should have named you as the hirer and then you could have appealed (not sure on what grounds but you have had that option stymied by the ZipCar actions). Plus the fact that if the Council rejected the appeal they would most likely reoffer the discount.


Mick


Thanks @Mick, this is really useful info and I will respond with something similar when Zipcar get in touch with me.

Just to be clear on the parking bay and signage, etc. No where does it state that the bay is for special permits, the sign next to the bay simply states "No Parking on Matchdays" which to me, reads that it is fine to park there all days other than match days in accordance with the other standard parking signs on the same side of the street... There are no signs anywhere nearby stating the Yellow Line parking restrictions, so the only sign that anyone could assume would be relevant is the "No parking on matchdays sign"

Is this logic wrong on my part?
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:11
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Here's the latest GSV but without the yellow lines:-

https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Thomas...33;4d-0.1049099

Can't see that Arsenal were playing on 24 January unless it was a European game.

Need to determine the contravention.

If you have the PCN number and the car registration there's a slight chance you might be able to see photos of the contravention on the Council's website.

Mick
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DJ Lexy
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:38
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I suspect this is a big-standard yellow line contravention and nothing to do with match days or the vendor bay.

What are the controlled hours on that yellow line? Is it a CPZ?
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loelopsky
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:40
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:11) *
Here's the latest GSV but without the yellow lines:-

https://www.google.com/maps/place/St+Thomas...33;4d-0.1049099

Can't see that Arsenal were playing on 24 January unless it was a European game.

Need to determine the contravention.

If you have the PCN number and the car registration there's a slight chance you might be able to see photos of the contravention on the Council's website.

Mick


The PCN Number is: IZ14244350
and the Reg # is: GN67TZC

It is visible on the council website here: https://islington.tarantoportal.com/PCN

And the offence stated is: 01 Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours

The bay you have posted Mick isn't correct, the car was in the bay here, which does have a yellow line in it, but not yellow line rules other than the "No Parking on Matchday" (It 100% wasn't a matchday)

This is the exact location, bay and signage: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5632371,-...6384!8i8192
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stamfordman
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:44
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Yes it's an 01 contravention on the yellow line CPZ. Given midday on a Friday.

CPZ hours (not match days): Mon - Sat 8.30am - 6.30pm

The bay is used for vendors selling burgers or scarfs or such like when Arsenal play at home.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:47
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:54
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https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5635944,-...6384!8i8192

The penalty has still not been paid so we are within a couple of days of a Charge Certificate! The NTO is dated 26 February. Talk about incompetence.

OP--- there doesn't look like there is a ZipCar bay in that street. If you parked there did you get the PCN?

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:56
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stamfordman
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:59
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Flex parking allows res and shared permit bay parking - you can't park in a car club bay in fact:

https://support.zipcar.co.uk/hc/en-gb/artic...rking-Islington
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Incandescent
post Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 19:08
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All very interesting, but what happened to the PCN shown on the photo as attached to the car under the nearside windscreen wiper ? Have Zip Car behaved badly ? If the conditions of hire include Zip car paying a NtO then on-charging the customer, what have they done wrong ?
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loelopsky
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 09:18
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The next driver who would have hired the ZipCar would have taken the PCN. I think ZipCar's point is that if that driver doesn't report the PCN, then they have no awareness of the PCN until they are written to in the post, I'm assuming 28 days later...

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stamfordman
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 10:07
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Indeed. But it's a shame as simple reps to Islington would have got the discount restored I expect and you'd be £65 better off. Easy to check as the PCN time was presumably after you relinquished control of the car.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 10:09
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hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 13:44
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GSV is not consistent with the photos, as can be seen from the length of the yellow line, which casts doubt on whether the car was even at the GSV location.

Therefore, unless the OP can confirm what sign, if any, was adjacent to their car, I'm none the wiser.

Anyway, OP can you confirm whether your account has been debited yet? The last day of the 28-day period for payment is today.

You have no access to the parking appeals process neither will you unless you threaten to take legal action against Zip Car under your terms and conditions of hire or otherwise get them to change their approach. As a starting point, I will say that even if they made reps to transfer liability to you they would still levy an admin. charge. So, what would you gain? A NTO would be sent to you also demanding the full penalty. On the basis of what we know(I include not knowing what sign if any was adjacent to your car and even whether you were within a street trading pitch) you have no defence. So, you could prospectively make reps and prospectively they could re-offer the discount.

Lots of ifs which only kick-in if you succeed in stopping them paying and to transfer liability.

Realistic? You tell me. You're their customer. What's your relationship?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 13:47
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Incandescent
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 16:22
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And still no answer on what happened to the PCN shown on the car in one of the photos.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 16:24
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 16:22) *
And still no answer on what happened to the PCN shown on the car in one of the photos.



How would the OP know? As he says:

The next driver who would have hired the ZipCar would have taken the PCN. I think ZipCar's point is that if that driver doesn't report the PCN, then they have no awareness of the PCN until they are written to in the post
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hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:40
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And to be honest, does it matter.

The most reasonable scenario is that the OP is subject to a double-whammy:

Leaving a vehicle either in contravention or prospective contravention of a waiting restriction, therefore:

Either contrary to parking regs, or
In prospective contravention,

In either case in breach of their hire agreement.

Until the OP fills the gaps in the evidence and process, where do we go?
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stamfordman
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:53
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I can't see any way to recover the discount other than Zip doing it and then knocking it off the OP's bill. They should do this to keep a customer maybe.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:54
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loelopsky
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 18:09
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 13:44) *
GSV is not consistent with the photos, as can be seen from the length of the yellow line, which casts doubt on whether the car was even at the GSV location.

Therefore, unless the OP can confirm what sign, if any, was adjacent to their car, I'm none the wiser.

Anyway, OP can you confirm whether your account has been debited yet? The last day of the 28-day period for payment is today.

You have no access to the parking appeals process neither will you unless you threaten to take legal action against Zip Car under your terms and conditions of hire or otherwise get them to change their approach. As a starting point, I will say that even if they made reps to transfer liability to you they would still levy an admin. charge. So, what would you gain? A NTO would be sent to you also demanding the full penalty. On the basis of what we know(I include not knowing what sign if any was adjacent to your car and even whether you were within a street trading pitch) you have no defence. So, you could prospectively make reps and prospectively they could re-offer the discount.

Lots of ifs which only kick-in if you succeed in stopping them paying and to transfer liability.

Realistic? You tell me. You're their customer. What's your relationship?


The image I've posted in the OP is identical to what it looked like at the time of offence and the sign is the same. It's clear that i made a stupid assumption that this was a parking space and the yellow line was only applicable on match days based on the sign in the image that I included in the original post.

I haven't been debited yet, and from the Islington site, it doesn't look like ZipCar have paid it yet, even though in the email to me they stated that they had. I'm not sure this matters as they've told me how much they will charge to my account, so if they miss the next deadline, that's their problem.

Attached Image


QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 16:22) *
And still no answer on what happened to the PCN shown on the car in one of the photos.


To answer the Question about the PCN - I'm guessing that the next renter of the car, either binned it or left it in the car, rather than reporting it to ZipCar which would have saved me £65.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:40) *
And to be honest, does it matter.

The most reasonable scenario is that the OP is subject to a double-whammy:

Leaving a vehicle either in contravention or prospective contravention of a waiting restriction, therefore:

Either contrary to parking regs, or
In prospective contravention,

In either case in breach of their hire agreement.

Until the OP fills the gaps in the evidence and process, where do we go?


I'm not sure what gaps there are to fill.

Thanks for all of your answers, It seems like I've made a stupid mistake parking in a market bay and not a parking spot. I will try to see if I can save myself £65 with zipcar, but this seems unlikely now.


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Incandescent
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 19:00
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This puzzles me: -

QUOTE
To answer the Question about the PCN - I'm guessing that the next renter of the car, either binned it or left it in the car, rather than reporting it to ZipCar which would have saved me £65.


So who was the renter when the car was parked as shown in the photos ? Surely for a hire car you don't just leave the car on the street somewhere for the next chap to pick up ? Or do Zip car have a rather strange business process ? I'm trying to understand, but maybe I'm a lagging a bit on modern car hire practices.
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