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Box Junction Edgware Bus Station (Barnet Council PCN)
bella(trying to ...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 20:25
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Hi again Guys,

This is our new dilemma.....Box Junction on Edgware high street adjacent to the tube station taxi rank (tube drop off and turn around & Edgware bus station)

I know there's another resent post about this area that Mr Mustard has been looking into, and we've been watching, as we have fallen foul of this peculiar strange box Junction also.

So....I've started my own thread as our video adds some further info on the area and the activity of the traffic flow.

In the video attached we are the white vehicle. the bus station and tube/taxi area is on the right of the image and there's a right hand turn lane in the middle of both of the Yellow Box "Junction"

There is also a set of traffic lights up ahead of the North bound flowing traffic which is a pedestrian crossing but this is not visible to the driver when 1st entering the YB.

https://imgur.com/4rHXhFc PCN pg1
https://imgur.com/0UMXw4U PCN pg2
https://imgur.com/wZJoqna PCN pg3
https://imgur.com/zzwO1p0 PCN pg4
https://imgur.com/LnMetz6 PCN pg5

https://imgur.com/GitUUPZ still image 1

https://imgur.com/j0Q9Mdc Still image 2

https://imgur.com/ldmhLsW Still image 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZq8IMGpM8...eature=youtu.be Video footage

You'll also note that the bus turning left (south bound of the frame) gets itself caught in the adjacent YBox.

Hopefully by starting a new thread about this area might help bring about a discussion if not a warning about Edgware Bus station YBox "Junction" as I think this is cash cow area for Barnet.

I'll be interested in your views and opinions.

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 20:32
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post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 20:25
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bella(trying to ...
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 09:23
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We've taken some pics of the area and the box junction over hang.

Hope these help.


https://imgur.com/a/TNRnncp

Two photo's in link, 1st showing the start of the over hand opp bus depo exit, and 2nd showing Over hang YB junction end opp tube station/taxi turn in.

When we send representation should we be adding in photo's as evidence??

Will this representation be our only chance to get our point across before it goes to an adjudicator? and will we have to appear in person before the adjudicator if our representation gets rejected by Barnet? (which we highly suspect and anticipate it will)??

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 09:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 09:29
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Both those photos are the same.

Yes you only get one formal representation to the council

No you do not have to attend the adjudication if you do not want to


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bella(trying to ...
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 09:33
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Thank you, and yes, sorry for doubling up the link of photos. will edit post.

Both start and end photos are on the same link (2 pics in the one Link)

Also have these 2 photo's showing end of YB to Pedestrian crossing (1 Bus length)

https://imgur.com/a/HoDawtN

and Google Map Links showing 1 bus length

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656
(link 1)

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656
(Link 2)

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 09:54
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chocolateandcoff...
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 14:30
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Should it not be even shorter than the opposing box since it serves no purpose for vehicles turning right into the bus station so should only be the length of the exit (and that is if allowed at all)?

What did you write in your reps in relation to bus length?

I am also fully expecting it to be rejected at reps

This box junction is a joke - I drive past it multiple times each day and every single time I see at least 2 cars stopped in the tail end - imagine how much money the council are making right now with this new camera?!

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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 19:54
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We're still drafting up our reps, and was thinking of putting/embedding the photos into the reps, like we've done in the past for parking appeals/POPLA appeal.

We've not had to appeal a YB before so this situation is new to us too.

When we were in the area Thursday we got some footage of the traffic flow during the day and yes....loads of cars were trapped in the YB in the matter of minutes, so it's definitely a fast earner of the council.

Buses turning right into the YB area and taxis turning right out of the tube station area both causing delays in the traffic flow and causing ongoing motorist's to be "blocked in da box" laugh.gif

Mr Mustard is now aware of the area, and hopefully he'll be keeping an eye on our posts (if he's not too busy)

I suspect this site will be seeing many more plea's for help in the future about Edgware Bus Station/Tube station area, but it might be up to us to start the ball rolling and see how our reps unfold.

We're concerned about 3 monitory variations stated on the PCN.
£65, (14 day discounted amount)
£130 must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice (13/03/2020) so would be 9th Apr 2020

Then £195
"if the penalty charge is not paid or you fail to make representation before the end of the 28 day period beginning with the DATE of SERVICE of this notice, an increase charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a Charge Certificate may be served seeking payment of the increased charge"

not sure what a "Charge Certificate" is?? assume bailiff letter?? Can they charge 3 times the amount of the discounted rate??

so we're hoping someone on here can enlighten us further on whether the wording and time spanning "serving" of this PCN is correct and if not, then this may also be a point that could be added to the reps?

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 20:25
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Mr Mustard
post Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 12:19
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Sorry for the delay. No harm in putting in photographs and anything you submit now ends up in front of an adjudicator later, if you decide to fight that far.

The PCN is £130, that is the standard amount payable within 28 days of the date of the PCN (although 2 extra days have to be allowed as you can make representations up to 28 days from the date of service, thanks to a quirk in the legislation). This is what you will pay if you go to the tribunal and lose.
Paying £65 is a concession to encourage the guilty to cough up quickly and save the council time and trouble.
If you make a challenge within 14 days Barnet usually offer the discount again if they reject you but they are not obliged to.
The £195 only applies if you fail to stick to the timetable so get those representations drafted, stick them on here for comment and then let's get them filed.


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 13:14
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The emphasis must be on that it is two separate boxes and the one you are alleged to have contravened is not at a junction. point out the idiocy of having a box junction with an oasis in the middle a driver can use to avoid the restriction


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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 24 Mar 2020 - 14:36
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OP ----I think you have enough for an appeal but you and chocolateandcoffee need to keep this one in mind should the Council reject:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1302318

Some of the other comments on that thread are important too.


Mick
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bella(trying to ...
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 10:49
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Thanks for all of this info. We will be researching everything today.

Just for clarity though, so that we've fully understood the time lines involved here.

14 days from date of notice (13th March 2020) was yesterday 26th March 2020, but 2 days are still allowed for "postal receiving of the PCN"

challenging the PCN time line is 28 days from 13th March 2020 should be 9th Apr 2020 PLUS 2 days for "postal recieving of PCN"

(reason why for clarity is because of a dyslexic needs disability) so pulling a representation letter together will defiantly take some time.

Barnet council PCN states: (last paragraph under the heading Making Representation)

"For details on requests for Reasonable adjustments as per the Equality Act 2010, please go to Barnet.gov.uk/parking and follow link to Challenge a PCN"

should we have requested this yesterday and is it worth requesting it now, or put it all in the representation letter?

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Mar 2020 - 11:06
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Payment must be made 14 days from the date of the notice 13th of march to pay the discount. so by 26th of March

Payment must be made 28 days from date of notice for the full amount so by the 9th of April

representations may be made before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of service so by 13th of April


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bella(trying to ...
post Sun, 29 Mar 2020 - 12:02
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we got some more video footage taken from the side of the road at the 1st pedestrian crossing.

It's not quite "a drivers view" but it does show a lower ground perspective of the roads traffic flow which happens at the start of the YB and problems that arise from the taxi's and buses etc turning out of the opposite junctions and the 2nd pedestrian crossing ahead (at the end of the YB)

bearing in mind that the still photo's in #post 2 & 4 show that both the start and the end of the (North bound) YB in question, over hangs from the junctions that are on the opposite YB (south bound) and the middle "turn right lane" that separates the two YB's, we are struggling to find the right/correct wording to describe these situations from the drivers perspective, to put into our representation.

we'd be interested in your opinions on the visuals and road lay out, and if these links can be embedded into the representation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-px82KHvLJo bus turning right onto YB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byuMpaM-8lY Taxi turning right onto YB

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sun, 29 Mar 2020 - 12:16
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 29 Mar 2020 - 12:54
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I can't see those as being helpful, all they show is a clearly defined box junction


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bella(trying to ...
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 19:50
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we've finally managed to pull together a representation draft letter and would be grateful of your opinion's.

Its a bit of a mishmash and we may need some help getting it into some form of order (we're used to drafting Parking appeals for POPLA) 1st YB junction alleged contravention/Council representation.

I am making representation on the following grounds:

1. The yellow box does not comply with the regulations and therefore there is no contravention.
A ‘box junction’ is an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and is

a) At the junction between two or more roads
b) At a gyratory system or roundabout, but only if it has full time traffic signals
c) Along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4,5 meters wide at its narrowest point
d) A length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.

2. The box junction is also too long and extends past the opposite carriageways box junction which services the tube station taxi rank and the entrance into and out of Edgware bus station, which is also separated by a central line for right turning into the tube station taxi rank. (Photographic evidence is attached)

3. The site in question is also subjected to completely unpredictable traffic behaviour.

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016:
Part 7 of Schedule 9 Art 11 (6)


(6) For the purpose of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the markings have been placed and which is –

(a) at a Junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
© along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 meters wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on a length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.

This stretch of road has 3 lanes, two of which are travelling north bound. The one where the alleged contravention is said to have occurred is travelled at a gradience when approaching the yellow box in question. The near side of the road has obstructions from parked cars and disabled parking bays, pulling out onto the coming traffic. Other vehicles preforming U-turns, also including taxis and buses turning right into the traffic flow, and the box junction in question also has pedestrian crossings both at the the start and the end of the box.
These unpredictable traffic manoeuvres are not foreseeable to the drivers travelling along and approaching the north bound yellow box, and the traffic flow gets regularly interrupted, and as the video and photographic evidence shows that the yellow box is also unnecessarily extended, so that vehicles get trapped in the extended area.

The second north bound lane is used as a filtered turn right into the tube station and bus station areas, and as such, separates the two yellow boxes both north and south bound, as such, the two yellow boxes cannot be combined as this lane runs in between them.
The 3rd lane which is situated on the opposite carriage way, South bound, also has a yellow boxed area which is serviced by the junctions of the tube station and bus station entries, where as the North bound yellow box junction traffic flow is not subjected to any junctions as described above and there is No fire, police or ambulance station or premises in the vicinity.

If it were to be considered that the box was placed due to the bus station on the south bound carriageway, regulations clearly state that the box should not extend beyond the mouth of the junction. London Tribunals Steven Thurston vs Richmond & Thames (case ref: 217028540) found that markings which extend beyond the junction of two or more roads do not mark out a box junction by the prohibition.
On the video footage provided you can see that the light blue car in front could have continued to move forward but instead choose to stop short and we had to bib our vehicles horn to encourage the driver to move forward. It could not have been anticipated of this drivers’ actions. Had they not stopped short we would have been able to clear the box junction, allowing the traffic to continue to flow. London Tribunals Neel Pattni vs London Borough of Newham (case Ref: 219008506A)

The photograph evidence supplied also clearly shows how the box junction extends beyond the opposite junction markings both at the start and the end of the yellow box. Had the markings finished at the mouth of the junction, as the regulations state.
London Tribunals Martin Forshaw vs Richmond and Thames (cases ref: 2170582946)

“The box junction observed in the CCTV is not standard. The furthest point of the yellow hatching proceeds beyond the junction. The same is not at commencement of the yellow hatchings entry point. The junction protrudes well beyond the junction mouth.
Boxes should not intrude into side roads and should be no bigger than is strictly necessary to protect the junction. The purpose is to prevent obstruction of the junction space not parts of the approaches or exits.”

“Motorists are entitled to make the assumption that the yellow box will finish once the junction is cleared. The markings in this box junction went well beyond the junction of the two roads in question.”

Combined with the lack of visibility on approach, taking into account the risk factors mentioned above, and the appeal points made within this representation, I look forward to receiving confirmation that this PCN has been cancelled.

Yours Sincerely
xxxxxxxxxxxx

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 21:33
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IMO it waffles about irrelevancies only two tings matter

That the box is not situated at a junction of two or more roads. it must be considered as a separate box defined by the markings and there is a clear lane between the two.

Even if it could be classed as a box at a junction of two roads then it fails in that it extends beyond the boundaries of the assumed junction

It cant be seen clearly because of gradient and parked cars is rebutted by your own video so dont use it


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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 4 Apr 2020 - 06:57
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 22:33) *
IMO it waffles about irrelevancies only two tings matter

That the box is not situated at a junction of two or more roads. it must be considered as a separate box defined by the markings and there is a clear lane between the two.

Even if it could be classed as a box at a junction of two roads then it fails in that it extends beyond the boundaries of the assumed junction

It cant be seen clearly because of gradient and parked cars is rebutted by your own video so dont use it


Thank you

agreed it does waffle abit, we're used to doing POPLA Appeals biggrin.gif

RE:gradient and parked cars, we put this in as we were planning on getting some dash cam footage of the approach, but cant now because of national lockdown.

We anticipate that this representation will be rejected and the matter may have to go to an Adjudicator so depending on how long this takes to go through the system, depends on if we can supply the dash cam footage at Adjudication stage and add it into evidence then?

Are the case quotes ok?
Is it ok to quote from the cases?
Are there any other cases that anyone might be aware of that we can research and quote about the box length and it not being situated by a junction of 2 or more roads etc?
can we add in google maps views like the bus length shot in post #4 ??

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Sat, 4 Apr 2020 - 07:12
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 4 Apr 2020 - 09:19
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Sat, 4 Apr 2020 - 07:57) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 3 Apr 2020 - 22:33) *
IMO it waffles about irrelevancies only two tings matter

That the box is not situated at a junction of two or more roads. it must be considered as a separate box defined by the markings and there is a clear lane between the two.

Even if it could be classed as a box at a junction of two roads then it fails in that it extends beyond the boundaries of the assumed junction

It cant be seen clearly because of gradient and parked cars is rebutted by your own video so dont use it


Thank you

agreed it does waffle abit, we're used to doing POPLA Appeals biggrin.gif

RE:gradient and parked cars, we put this in as we were planning on getting some dash cam footage of the approach, but cant now because of national lockdown.

We anticipate that this representation will be rejected and the matter may have to go to an Adjudicator so depending on how long this takes to go through the system, depends on if we can supply the dash cam footage at Adjudication stage and add it into evidence then?

Are the case quotes ok?
Is it ok to quote from the cases?
Are there any other cases that anyone might be aware of that we can research and quote about the box length and it not being situated by a junction of 2 or more roads etc?
can we add in google maps views like the bus length shot in post #4 ??


quoting cases is fine but as you say the council will reject anyway. Make sure to keep screenshots to prove you sent it, there is no time limit on responding to rep in the 2003 regs so it is likely to take a while, and could easily be overlooked ( no it wont just disappear the y will send you a charge certificate)


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bella(trying to ...
post Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 09:25
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Hi,

This is our final draft for representation which we hope is ready to send with photo's added from post #4, youtube clip and google maps shots showing gradient and road layout.

We hope to add dash cam footage when we can to the appeal when/if this goes to adjudicator.

we want to get this sent off (will be keeping screen shots as evidence that its been sent) and would be grateful for any input with regards to layout or anything else we could add or need to remove.


PCN number: XXXXXXX 7th April 2020
VREG: XXXXXXXX

I am making representation on the following grounds:

1. The yellow box does not comply with the regulations and therefore there is no contravention.
A ‘box junction’ is an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and is
a) At the junction between two or more roads
b) At a gyratory system or roundabout, but only if it has full time traffic signals
c) Along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4,5 meters wide at its narrowest point
d) A length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.

2. The box junction is also too long and extends past the opposite carriageways box junction which services the tube station taxi rank and the entrance into and out of Edgware bus station, which is also separated by a central line for right turning into the tube station taxi rank. (Photographic evidence is attached)

3. The site in question is also subjected to completely unpredictable traffic behaviour.

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016:
Part 7 of Schedule 9 Art 11 (6)

(6) For the purpose of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the markings have been placed and which is –
(a) at a Junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
© along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 meters wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on a length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station.
This stretch of road has 3 lanes, two of which are travelling north bound. The one where the alleged contravention is said to have occurred is travelled at a gradience when approaching the yellow box in question. The near side of the road has obstructions from parked cars and disabled parking bays, pulling out onto the coming traffic. Other vehicles preforming U-turns, also including taxis and buses turning right into the traffic flow, and the box junction in question also has pedestrian crossings both at the the start and the end of the box.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.613721,-0.2...3312!8i6656

These unpredictable traffic manoeuvres are not foreseeable to the drivers travelling along and approaching the north bound yellow box, and the traffic flow gets regularly interrupted, and as the video and photographic evidence shows that the yellow box is also unnecessarily extended, so that vehicles get trapped in the extended area.

The second north bound lane is used as a filtered turn right into the tube station and bus station areas, and as such, separates the two yellow boxes both north and south bound, and the two yellow boxes cannot be combined as this lane runs in between them.
The 3rd lane which is situated on the opposite carriage way, South bound, also has a yellow boxed area which is serviced by the junctions of the tube station and bus station entries, where as the North bound yellow box junction traffic flow is not subjected to any junctions as described above and there is No fire, police or ambulance station or premises in the vicinity.

If it were to be considered that the box was placed due to the bus station on the south bound carriageway, regulations clearly state that the box should not extend beyond the mouth of the junction. London Tribunals Steven Thurston vs Richmond & Thames (case ref: 217028540) found that markings which extend beyond the junction of two or more roads do not mark out a box junction by the prohibition.
On the video footage provided you can see that the light blue car in front could have continued to move forward but instead choose to stop short and we had to bib our vehicles horn to encourage the driver to move forward. It could not have been anticipated of this drivers’ actions. Had they not stopped short we would have been able to clear the box junction, allowing the traffic to continue to flow. London Tribunals Neel Pattni vs London Borough of Newham (case Ref: 219008506A)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZq8IMGpM8...eature=youtu.be

The photograph evidence supplied also clearly shows how the box junction extends beyond the opposite junction markings both at the start and the end of the yellow box. Had the markings finished at the mouth of the junction, as the regulations state.

https://imgur.com/a/TNRnncp (inserted photo's not link)

Start of YBox overhang opp Bus Station End of YBox overhang opp Tube station

London Tribunals Martin Forshaw vs Richmond and Thames (cases ref: 2170582946)


“The box junction observed in the CCTV is not standard. The furthest point of the yellow hatching proceeds beyond the junction. The same is not at commencement of the yellow hatchings entry point. The junction protrudes well beyond the junction mouth.
Boxes should not intrude into side roads and should be no bigger than is strictly necessary to protect the junction. The purpose is to prevent obstruction of the junction space not parts of the approaches or exits.” once
“Motorists are entitled to make the assumption that the yellow box will finish the junction is cleared. The markings in this box junction went well beyond the junction of the two roads in question.”


Combined with the lack of visibility on approach, taking into account the risk factors mentioned above, and the appeal points made within this representation, I look forward to receiving confirmation that this PCN has been cancelled.

Yours Sincerely

XXXXXXXXXX

This post has been edited by bella(trying to work): Tue, 7 Apr 2020 - 09:32
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bella(trying to ...
post Sun, 19 Apr 2020 - 07:36
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Morning all,

As predicted, got Notice of Rejection of representation letter yesterday in the post so its attached here.

Any advise or help with getting to the next stage would be appropriated. Not use to adjudication tribunal. Got 28 days so Wednesday 13th May 2020.

We will be requesting an Appeal Form but hoping to submit on line, but feel we put everything into the representation Letter post#18

https://imgur.com/a/nzD0Q4c
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cp8759
post Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 18:32
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Have a read of Michael Maurice v London Borough of Barnet (2190483517, 11 December 2019), the same issue arises in your case.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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