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Box Junction PCN Barnet Council
chocolateandcoff...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 13:10
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Can you please advise me if I can appeal this ticket for stopping in a box junction.

The junction has recently been repainted and extended and I was having an awful day with a screaming baby in the back of the car on autopilot. I clearly remember the traffic was flowing but then a car did a U turn so one further ahead stopped to let him go and a bus pulled out (there is a bus stop further ahead on the left).

I am questioning whether it is actually a box junction as per regulations because 2 roads do not join - it is the entrance to the bus depot on the right and the entrance to the tube station drop off?

I don't think this is relevant but Barnet Council website lists the wrong box junction on Station Road as the one that has camera enforcements.









Link to video https://youtu.be/Ol6-VEPmGEQ

This post has been edited by chocolateandcoffee: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 13:23
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post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 13:10
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 13:53
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I am sure Mr Mustard will have come across this aberration.

The YB where the OP is caught mirrors the one on the opposite side of the street. Why?

There is no junction on the OP's side and the only plausible reason for its existence is to assist buses turning right out of the bus station. It cannot assist buses which turn left into the bus station.

IMO it is too long since it should only correspond to the junction where buses are turning right.

I am not an expert on yellow boxes so other views are necessary.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:00
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Assuming you are the first car caught and not the second (which charged in and is bang to rights) then apart from technical arguments on the box I think there is a good case for assumption of normal traffic flow. As this still shows, the car doing the dreadful u-turn is only just starting as you enter the box so you could hardly have foreseen this.

Also, reinstate all dates and times on the PCN and try and show it the right way up.



This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:02
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chocolateandcoff...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:18
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Thank you, I am the black car so yes the first one. If I was in the position of the one behind, I never would have entered, not even on autopilot as it is a route I drive multiple times daily.

Apologies, I am not home now but will reinstate days and times and re-upload when possible.

Is my best bet to contest on the basis of the u-turn?
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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:41
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Dont know if this helps but further up the road, on google maps shows traffic lights and pedestrian crossing up ahead? No way to get out of the lines unless you enter the right turn lane which would take you into the tube station turn-around area??
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stamfordman
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 15:44
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QUOTE (chocolateandcoffee @ Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:18) *
Thank you, I am the black car so yes the first one. If I was in the position of the one behind, I never would have entered, not even on autopilot as it is a route I drive multiple times daily.

Apologies, I am not home now but will reinstate days and times and re-upload when possible.

Is my best bet to contest on the basis of the u-turn?


No rush depending on dates. Wait for more views. Mr Mustard may have more on this one.
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chocolateandcoff...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 17:06
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 14:41) *
Dont know if this helps but further up the road, on google maps shows traffic lights and pedestrian crossing up ahead? No way to get out of the lines unless you enter the right turn lane which would take you into the tube station turn-around area??


Yes that is correct. There is also a disabled and loading bay plus multiple bus stops ahead on the left. It is a *** stupid place to put a camera as it is so common for traffic to be flowing without any issues and a pedestrian to run in front of a moving car to try and catch a bus that is about to leave or a bus to suddenly pull out without warning. Traffic also appears to be moving freely and someone suddenly stops to park or let someone out of the car in the middle of the road.

I am generally extremely careful with box junctions but I can see this one catching lots of people out for the above reasons
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chocolateandcoff...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 20:55
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Reposting PCN rotated correct way up and with dates included

[IMG=https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/C2S6Vh.jpg][/IMG]
[IMG=https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/0CH4Vp.jpg][/IMG]
[IMG=https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/nEC2tq.jpg][/IMG]
[IMG=https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/Yf6Xao.jpg][/IMG]
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bella(trying to ...
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 20:57
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If it's any consolation, we got one of these in the post today too, exactly the same junction, 1st car in the box, had to break hard from the car in front and even bibbed the horn to get car in front to move forward and we're creeping out of the Ybox.

On our vid, Car behind was also approaching at speed too.

Jumped straight on pepipoo and saw your post and the reminder of Mr Mustard who knows a lot about Barnet Councils antic's (although this is Edgware High Street)

Will be starting a new thread, but watching yours for the advise so as not to waste everyone's time on here double questioning.

We've done some researching on the site today, but cant find anything current about this area, and noted as you have, that the lines have been recently painted.

Hopefully Mr Mustard can advise more, checking out his blog.

just didn't want you to feel alone in this.

We've donated to Pepipoo. Help and support received on here is invaluable.
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 08:36
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Not out of bed yet this morning and other things to do first, will look at this later. I have the council in trouble over the wording of the PCN and need to check it has not been corrected yet and look at this new to me location. More later.


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 09:31
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I don't think the YB is legal:-
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/made

Part 7 of Schedule 9 Art 11(6)

(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—

(a) at a junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(с) along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station;


Mick
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chocolateandcoff...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 09:49
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QUOTE (bella(trying to work) @ Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 20:57) *
If it's any consolation, we got one of these in the post today too, exactly the same junction, 1st car in the box, had to break hard from the car in front and even bibbed the horn to get car in front to move forward and we're creeping out of the Ybox.

On our vid, Car behind was also approaching at speed too.

Jumped straight on pepipoo and saw your post and the reminder of Mr Mustard who knows a lot about Barnet Councils antic's (although this is Edgware High Street)

Will be starting a new thread, but watching yours for the advise so as not to waste everyone's time on here double questioning.

We've done some researching on the site today, but cant find anything current about this area, and noted as you have, that the lines have been recently painted.

Hopefully Mr Mustard can advise more, checking out his blog.

just didn't want you to feel alone in this.

We've donated to Pepipoo. Help and support received on here is invaluable.



Thanks, I am sure this new camera must have caught so many out because of its terrible location. I am also concerned that I have more PCNs coming for the same reason - having to brake because someone has blocked the flow of traffic.

I am new to Pepipoo, been extremely lucky not to get previous PCN in past 14 years of driving but I will certainly be donating, there is such a wealth of information on here. I would never have questioned the legality of the box had I not read previous posts. I don't think it is a legal one from reading the regulations but others' on here clearly know much more than me.
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 16:54
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This isn't cut and dried. Any argument about traffic suddenly stopping won't work, the box has to be empty when you enter it and it wasn't in this case. My blog on the subject is here

Sadly, the wording point on which I have been beating the council since December has now been corrected by them on 27 February so that doesn't help us.

I sort of disagree with Mad Mick that this is the entrance to the bus depot, it is a road which leads to the bus depot which any of us could drive down as there are no restrictions on entering it. It may be private land but I lost a yellow box case at the entry to a huge block of flats at St Georges Wharf which was held to be a junction (see 2160457096) and that was even less obviously a road, being the entry to and exit from the estate.

I think the only grounds may well be the design (much relaxed since the 2016 Traffic Signs Regulations came into being) and that the box exceeds the width of the junction and accordingly where the vehicle stopped shouldn't form part of the box. It is only at adjudication with the discount at risk that the OP may win.

Picture from the council's traffic management order



This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 16:56


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cp8759
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 17:42
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Mr Mustard do you know if Barnet now provides the appeal form with the NoR? It's the only thing I can think of at this point.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 17:44


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chocolateandcoff...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 18:08
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 16:54) *
This isn't cut and dried. Any argument about traffic suddenly stopping won't work, the box has to be empty when you enter it and it wasn't in this case. My blog on the subject is here

Sadly, the wording point on which I have been beating the council since December has now been corrected by them on 27 February so that doesn't help us.

I sort of disagree with Mad Mick that this is the entrance to the bus depot, it is a road which leads to the bus depot which any of us could drive down as there are no restrictions on entering it. It may be private land but I lost a yellow box case at the entry to a huge block of flats at St Georges Wharf which was held to be a junction (see 2160457096) and that was even less obviously a road, being the entry to and exit from the estate.

I think the only grounds may well be the design (much relaxed since the 2016 Traffic Signs Regulations came into being) and that the box exceeds the width of the junction and accordingly where the vehicle stopped shouldn't form part of the box. It is only at adjudication with the discount at risk that the OP may win.

Picture from the council's traffic management order



Thank you Mr Mustard. Would you say it is worth appealing on the basis of the design of the box or do the updated traffic regulation make that not worthwhile?

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mickR
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 18:13
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 16:54) *
I sort of disagree with Mad Mick that this is the entrance to the bus depot, it is a road which leads to the bus depot which any of us could drive down as there are no restrictions on entering it. It may be private land but I lost a yellow box case at the entry to a huge block of flats at St Georges Wharf which was held to be a junction (see 2160457096) and that was even less obviously a road, being the entry to and exit from the estate.


I tend to think an entrance to a huge block of flats woukd be far more likely to be a road than an entrance to a bus station.
are you sure there are no restrictions to cars? No "busses only" signs?

This post has been edited by mickR: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 18:14
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chocolateandcoff...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 18:21
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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 18:13) *
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 16:54) *
I sort of disagree with Mad Mick that this is the entrance to the bus depot, it is a road which leads to the bus depot which any of us could drive down as there are no restrictions on entering it. It may be private land but I lost a yellow box case at the entry to a huge block of flats at St Georges Wharf which was held to be a junction (see 2160457096) and that was even less obviously a road, being the entry to and exit from the estate.


I tend to think an entrance to a huge block of flats woukd be far more likely to be a road than an entrance to a bus station.
are you sure there are no restrictions to cars? No "busses only" signs?


I dont think there are but I will double check when I drive past later today and confirm. I do see the odd car go in but I am pretty sure that is just the cars belonging to staff working at the bus station. Never known anyone else to drive in there
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stamfordman
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 19:31
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I would certainly not abandon the interruption of traffic flow by that u-turn driver. We know that discretion for events that are beyond normal expectation are allowed and indeed has been written into guidance by H&F.

The point is that it is recognised that if everyone spaced out beyond the dimensions of a box just in case something like this happened traffic flow would be compromised.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 19:57
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I would go with the U turning car being an event that could not be anticipation and the length of the box

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bella(trying to ...
post Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 21:00
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 15 Mar 2020 - 19:31) *
I would certainly not abandon the interruption of traffic flow by that u-turn driver. We know that discretion for events that are beyond normal expectation are allowed and indeed has been written into guidance by H&F.

The point is that it is recognised that if everyone spaced out beyond the dimensions of a box just in case something like this happened traffic flow would be compromised.


I agree with this point as it is definitely a common occurrence on this road.

The end of the YBox road markings area and the start of the pedestrian crossing road markings is about one bus length, so one bus in front stops at the pedestrian crossing, and then the back up begins & others cars are going to get trapped in the YBox.

I've started my own thread which has video on.

Finding the images of this area on Google maps also very interesting.

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