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Contravention 12
couscous
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 08:54
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Hi

I was issued with a PCN for parking on shared or permit road. The signage is very small and easily missed. Could i appeal on any
grounds?



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post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 08:54
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stamfordman
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 09:41
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Post the pics so we can read them

Give us a google street view.

post council's pics.
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couscous
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 21:39
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These are the pictures from council
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couscous
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 17:01
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Below is the reply from the council:- is it worth appealing:





Your ref:



Our ref:

LPS MJB

Date:

12/03/2020



Traffic Management Act 2004

Penalty Charge Notice: LQ9357604A

Vehicle Registration Number:KD07WVJ Make: VAUXHALL

Date and Time of Contravention: 27/02/2020 at 18:45

Location: FOREST STREET, NELSON

Parking Contravention: 12 Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place





Dear Sir/Madam



CHALLENGE AGAINST YOUR PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE (PCN)



Thank you for your correspondence challenging your Penalty Charge Notice.



We have carefully considered your comments but are not willing to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice for the following reason(s):



We acknowledge that you have advised there was no adequate signage in place to indicate of the restriction however, we are satisfied that there is clearly visible singage in place to indicate of the restriction as shown in the below photo:





We note that you were visiting your friend and had their permission to park on the street but without displaying a valid parking permit you are not permitted to park here.



It is the onus of the driver to ensure to abide by all parking rules and regulations when searching for adequate parking.



Consequently, we find insufficient mitigation to warrant cancellation of the case and as such the charge still stands.



You now have the following choices:

You will be required to pay the full amount of £70.00 as the discount period has now elapsed. Payment will close the case and you will be unable to make a further challenge against the charge.
You can continue to contest the charge. If payment is not received within the 28 days from the date of the Penalty Charge Notice, we will send a Notice to Owner form to the registered owner/keeper. This will offer the opportunity to pay the full charge or to submit a formal representation against the charge by completing and returning the form.
Should your representation be unsuccessful, you will be able to take your appeal to an independent adjudicator.








How to pay:

By phone on 0344 826 6593. Lines are open all day, every day (24 hours). Please have your PCN number and credit or debit card ready. There will be no extra charge for using your card to make payment. Please note that some card types may not be accepted.
Online at www.lancashire.gov.uk/parking and click ‘pay online’.




Yours sincerely







pp. Peter Bell

Regulation & Enforcement Manager





LPS MJB

Technical Support Officer

Highways and Transport

Lancashire County Council

parking@lancashire.gov.uk

www.lancashire.gov.uk/parking

Lancashire Parking Services

PO Box 1023

Preston

PR1 3ZA


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stamfordman
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 17:05
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here?

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8392843,-2....3312!8i6656

what is meant by 'We note that you were visiting your friend and had their permission to park.?

Surely your friend knows you need a permit.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 17:06
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couscous
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 21:20
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Yes that’s the one - no she doesn’t and to be fair they don’t have a vehicle and not quite familiar they are new to UK
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 11:51
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Show us:

1) Both sides of the PCN in full in a good enough resolution that we can read it.
2) The representation you sent to the council.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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couscous
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 12:04
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https://ibb.co/18MdjCM
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This was my reply:-

Hi

I would like to challenge the appeal on two grounds. Firstly there were no adequate signage to pre-warn me except a very small sign, it was dark and could be easily missed. There is no signage at the entrance or exit of the Forest Street.

I visited a friends house and I had their permission to park on her street as they do not have a car so I could take their spot without troubling anyone . I was not told of the permit requirement. I am willing to take this further based on the lack of evidence and inadequate signage.

Kind Regards

.
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 17:44
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I take it you didn't challenge the PCN within the 14 day discount period? This is not a rhetorical question, please confirm one way or the other.

You're banged-to-rights on the contravention, so if the discount is on offer, I'd advice you to pay. However since the discount is gone, you might as well wait for the Notice to Owner, if nothing else there's a chance the council might re-offer the discount at the next stage.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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couscous
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 17:57
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Hi yes I appealed within the 14 days pretty much on the last days which was on the 11/03. What do you mean ‘banged-to-rights’ on the contravention?

Regards
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 18:38
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QUOTE (couscous @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 17:57) *
What do you mean ‘banged-to-rights’ on the contravention?

You're guilty as charged and have no defence to the allegation. By parking in a bay you are put on notice that there might be restrictions and as a driver you are under a legal duty to look for the signs that govern the use of the bay. The signs are therefore adequate because a diligent motorist would have seen them. As you might guess, the fact that you didn't know about this and you didn't see the signs is irrelevant, because ultimately the signs were there to be seen.

On the other hand, as the discount is gone, you might as well continue as the penalty can't go up any more as long as you don't miss any deadlines. If you're lucky and the council makes a mistake in the enforcement process, you might even be able to get the PCN cancelled.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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phantomcrusader
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 22:12
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Any possibility something akin to this can succeed?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxn3ku1apA...RzsOY8xRyt/view

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 22:12
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Incandescent
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 23:26
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QUOTE (phantomcrusader @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 22:12) *
Any possibility something akin to this can succeed?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zxn3ku1apA...RzsOY8xRyt/view

Well it might, but I doubt it. Of course you have the absolute right to take the matter to the adjudicators and test it out. As the discount has gone, why not ?
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couscous
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 00:42
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I have revisited the same street today and on part of the street they allow you to park between certain time zone and bottom of the same street the second bay is for residents. Other than the sign on the bay it’s easily missed?
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cp8759
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 01:21
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QUOTE (couscous @ Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 00:42) *
I have revisited the same street today and on part of the street they allow you to park between certain time zone and bottom of the same street the second bay is for residents. Other than the sign on the bay it’s easily missed?

But they're two different bays, separated by a junction: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8393032,-2....3312!8i6656
The fact remains that the notional diligent motorist would know to look for the sign for the bay he's actually parked in.

The code 12 argument is nowhere near as strong as the non-London wording is a lot simpler, but if the council does not re-offer the discount you might as well give it a go.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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couscous
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 06:11
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Ok - how would I proceed with the formal appeal? Thank you for your help and honesty.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 08:28
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yes I appealed within the 14 days pretty much on the last days which was on the 11/03. What do you mean ‘banged-to-rights’ on the contravention?

This is the owner's get-out-of-jail card if they could prove the authority received your challenge no later than 11 March.

We are trying to steer you (and the owner if this is not you) away from the - IMO hopeless - arguments regarding the contravention, whether the act itself or wording of the contravention. Remember, their response told you that the contravention arose because you did not display the required permit and the signs show it is not a shared use bay.

So, do you have a copy of your challenge - not whether you can recall the rough wording, but do you have a copy - and how and when was this sent? If you don't, then you could either ask the authority to provide now or the owner could simply assert this in reps once a NTO is received and require the authority, should they reject, to include evidence of when the challenge was received.
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couscous
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 08:40
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Yes I have the proof as they also sent me an acknowledgment of received via email on the same day when the appeal was sent on the 11/03.

Yes i still have the copy of the PCN, the officer placed under my wiper on the evening that I was booked. I am slightly baffled in east Lancashire I wasn’t aware that enforcement officers operated after 18:00
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 09:21
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To me it boils down to the re-offer of the discount:-

1) if the OP made a challenge by the 14th day he has a legitimate expectation that the discount would be re-offered (there is a case in the sticky thread on this);
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1327736

2) Under what method of discretion/consideration can the Council decide not to reoffer the discount? It is clearly stated on the PCN that they don't have to re-offer but they must have a written policy IMO to make such decisions on a case by case basis.

Looking through some older cases they never reoffer the discount so it is entrenched and has become set policy.

TBH I think we have a "penalty exceeds" case here.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 09:36
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Mar 2020 - 11:56
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We do.

It is not the case that the authority can decide on a case-by-case basis whether or not to re-offer the discount if there is no context for this in the PCN. 'Generally decide' or whatever are meaningless words without some basis for the recipient of a PCN to make a rational and informed decision as to what action to take and when. This has nothing to do with parking, this is local government law.

IMO, the OP was and is entitled to the re-offered discount, therefore the following apply:

If a NTO is served on the owner, then the grounds of 'penalty exceeded..' would apply;

But if no NTO is served, then the case is closed anyway.
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