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Perrins Lane Banned Turn., Threads merged
madandy
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 13:17
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I AM OVERPASTING THIS ON MY STARTING POST AND CLEARING ALL MY INTERMEDIATE POSTS DOWN TO THE REPOST OF THIS OWING TO MY CRACKING THE TECHNOLOGY!!!!

https://i.ibb.co/Vw7Hq6w/Camden-1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/VCXWTyy/Camden-2.jpg

I have a PCN from Camden for the banned right turn from Perrins Lane into Hampstead. On a hunch I checked the signage and believe it is incorrect but first a run through the PCN which seems to be flawed.

I will number each point for ease.

1) It says "If the penalty charge is paid before the end of a period of 14 days beginning from the date of this notice." The date in question is March 3rd. This arrived on March 5th. If this us a breach of the procedure whereby the date should be that of service of the notice then this is a flagrant breach because their service of the notice could not possibly be the same of the date of the notice i.e. if this breach is deliberate. However, in the paragraph below it state that "the date of service of this notice is effected as the second working day after the date of posting. Surely that should apply throughout... my point here being that this one PCN has effectively two dates of service! The bottom paragraph reverts to a straightforwards "beginning with the date on which the penalty notice was served" without qualification!

2) Another old chestnut is the "grounds for appeal." There is no tick box for "Other reason" or "mitigating circumstances" thus implying that if none of the tick-boxes are your grounds for appeal you cannot do so.

3) Upon looking at the images online I am confronted with "Unfortunately, we are unable to display the video evidence with the browser you are using. Please try to complete the form using Internet Explorer 8 or later." This is clearly obstructive since I have never had any problem viewing anyone's videos including those of PCN elsewhere online because of my browser.... Google Chrome. given those circumstances surely that fetters my ability to see the evidence.

[attachment=69956:Camden3.jpg]

4) Regarding the situation I will post here the starting picture. I had actually stopped there to take on board a passenger after a wait of about two minutes and simply could not see the sign because of the way it was angled. One thing you will see it the No Entry sign but to the reverse of it is the Turn Left arrow sign. What is however really noticeable is that the pole is situated excessively to the left so that when driving down Perrins Lane it is easy to miss seeing it (i) because of the leftwards curve, then (ii) because of the building to the left obstructing the line of vision and the (iii) because the sign has been attached to the pole at an angle rendering it visible only for a few yards then invisible for about a car length to the junction. Indeed, the camera is set on the same post as the sign in the high street and the picture angle betray the fact that the sign does not face the junction.

5) There is another sign on the other side of the main road with an arrow on it BUT this sign is in fact way to the right of the junction rather than facing it.

6) So now we come on to the main thrust. The signage is non-complaint and therefore unenforceable according to https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

Here is the paragraph from the section on signs:-

At an unsignalled junction where a side road forms a T‑junction with a two‑way road (see Figure 4-6) and traffic is required to turn in one direction only, the use of a sign to diagram 606, even without a “One way” plate, could be misleading as drivers might think they are turning into a one‑way road. A sign to diagram 612 or 613 (S3‑2‑7 and 8 respectively, see Figure 4-8 and Figure 4-9) should therefore be used at the junction, indicating the prohibited turn.

If you turn to Figure 4-4 it shows how the signage of arrows should be set up if the main road is a one way street. Hampstead High Street is not but even assuming it was, both signs are in the wrong place with the one on the corner needing to be about 50 metres back and the other across the main road directly OPPOSITE the junction. There is no sign 50 metres back.

On the other hand Figure 4-6 on Page 29 shows the correct signage for a T-junction where the main ropad is not one-way with the "Turn Left" arrow sited 50 metres in advance and specifically a "No Right Turn" black, white and red sign sited to the left on the junction.

Indeed, Section 4.2.5 makes it absolutely clear that the use of a "Turn Left" sign at the junction of a two way main street is not allowed because it implies that the street could be one way and that only a "No Right Turn" sign will do.

Either way there was no advance warning sign whatsoever and before I end I need to point out that i took the liberty of comparing this situation with other prohibited right turns from side roads onto main roads at T junctions in Camden and here are two result which can be verified on Google Earth.

(i) Caversham Road into two way Kentish Town Road:- No Right Turn sign:- Correct. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5488275,-0....6384!8i8192

(ii) Park Hill Road into one way Fleet Road:- Turn Left sign:- Correct:- https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5527947,-0....6384!8i8192
...and in case you wondered, yes, in the lower picture that IS by chance two of the councils tow-trucks queuing to add some cheer!.

In other words, Camden are aware of what it should be.

Finally I dug up this case in Havering which relates directly to the difference between a directional and a prohibition sign..... http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t87831.html

A look at the picture of the junction from this angle below clearly indicates that applying that judgement to the above misplaced signs, even if they were compliant, one could clear the signs by driving as close to the front of the blue car across the road before turning on full lock. Food for thought.

This post has been edited by madandy: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 12:58
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post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 13:17
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mummyof3
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 14:20
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Use an external hosting site - eg imgbb

Also put up all sides of the PCN and all pictures/videos


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Earl Purple
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 14:32
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Location is here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5556608,-0....6384!8i8192

Sign opposite might have been obscured by a bus or lorry, a video would indicate whether or not it was.

On the corner there is a 609 where you'd expect a 606.

Traffic orders create prohibitions not signs but the signs must make the prohibition clear so you would be arguing that it does not. Small technicalities do not get people off anymore - maybe they did in the past but adjudicators do not accept that anymore.

This post has been edited by Earl Purple: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 15:06
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mummyof3
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 14:49
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https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5556875,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by mummyof3: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 15:26


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Earl Purple
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 15:07
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QUOTE (mummyof3 @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 14:49) *


your link takes me to Edinburgh. This happened in Hampstead, NW3 in the London borough of Camden.
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mummyof3
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 15:27
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Oops - sorry - edited the post


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 16:23
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We need to see the PCN and video. to check the signage

It would be silly to offer advise without these, other than do not appeal on those grounds without our input


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madandy
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 21:08
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Post self-deleted

This post has been edited by madandy: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 12:39
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madandy
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 21:25
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Post self-deleted.

This post has been edited by madandy: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 12:40
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 22:08
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Post the photos and the PCN on imgur or another external site those links dont work . I nor anybody else can tell you if the guidance is applicable until we see these


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cp8759
post Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 08:27
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 22:08) *
Post the photos and the PCN on imgur or another external site those links dont work . I nor anybody else can tell you if the guidance is applicable until we see these

+1


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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madandy
post Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 22:50
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POST SELF-DELETED

This post has been edited by madandy: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 12:41
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madandy
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 12:33
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I AM OVERPASTING THIS HERE AND CLEARING ALL MY INTERMEDIATE POSTS DOWN TO THE REPOST OF THIS OWING TO MY CRACKING THE TECHNOLOGY!!!!

https://i.ibb.co/Vw7Hq6w/Camden-1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/VCXWTyy/Camden-2.jpg

I have a PCN from Camden for the banned right turn from Perrins Lane into Hampstead. On a hunch I checked the signage and believe it is incorrect but first a run through the PCN which seems to be flawed.

I will number each point for ease.

1) It says "If the penalty charge is paid before the end of a period of 14 days beginning from the date of this notice." The date in question is March 3rd. This arrived on March 5th. If this us a breach of the procedure whereby the date should be that of service of the notice then this is a flagrant breach because their service of the notice could not possibly be the same of the date of the notice i.e. if this breach is deliberate. However, in the paragraph below it state that "the date of service of this notice is effected as the second working day after the date of posting. Surely that should apply throughout... my point here being that this one PCN has effectively two dates of service! The bottom paragraph reverts to a straightforwards "beginning with the date on which the penalty notice was served" without qualification!

2) Another old chestnut is the "grounds for appeal." There is no tick box for "Other reason" or "mitigating circumstances" thus implying that if none of the tick-boxes are your grounds for appeal you cannot do so.

3) Upon looking at the images online I am confronted with "Unfortunately, we are unable to display the video evidence with the browser you are using. Please try to complete the form using Internet Explorer 8 or later." This is clearly obstructive since I have never had any problem viewing anyone's videos including those of PCN elsewhere online because of my browser.... Google Chrome. given those circumstances surely that fetters my ability to see the evidence.

[attachment=69956:Camden3.jpg]

4) Regarding the situation I will post here the starting picture. I had actually stopped there to take on board a passenger after a wait of about two minutes and simply could not see the sign because of the way it was angled. One thing you will see it the No Entry sign but to the reverse of it is the Turn Left arrow sign. What is however really noticeable is that the pole is situated excessively to the left so that when driving down Perrins Lane it is easy to miss seeing it (i) because of the leftwards curve, then (ii) because of the building to the left obstructing the line of vision and the (iii) because the sign has been attached to the pole at an angle rendering it visible only for a few yards then invisible for about a car length to the junction. Indeed, the camera is set on the same post as the sign in the high street and the picture angle betray the fact that the sign does not face the junction.

5) There is another sign on the other side of the main road with an arrow on it BUT this sign is in fact way to the right of the junction rather than facing it.

6) So now we come on to the main thrust. The signage is non-complaint and therefore unenforceable according to https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

Here is the paragraph from the section on signs:-

At an unsignalled junction where a side road forms a T‑junction with a two‑way road (see Figure 4-6) and traffic is required to turn in one direction only, the use of a sign to diagram 606, even without a “One way” plate, could be misleading as drivers might think they are turning into a one‑way road. A sign to diagram 612 or 613 (S3‑2‑7 and 8 respectively, see Figure 4-8 and Figure 4-9) should therefore be used at the junction, indicating the prohibited turn.

If you turn to Figure 4-4 it shows how the signage of arrows should be set up if the main road is a one way street. Hampstead High Street is not but even assuming it was, both signs are in the wrong place with the one on the corner needing to be about 50 metres back and the other across the main road directly OPPOSITE the junction. There is no sign 50 metres back.

On the other hand Figure 4-6 on Page 29 shows the correct signage for a T-junction where the main ropad is not one-way with the "Turn Left" arrow sited 50 metres in advance and specifically a "No Right Turn" black, white and red sign sited to the left on the junction.

Indeed, Section 4.2.5 makes it absolutely clear that the use of a "Turn Left" sign at the junction of a two way main street is not allowed because it implies that the street could be one way and that only a "No Right Turn" sign will do.

Either way there was no advance warning sign whatsoever and before I end I need to point out that i took the liberty of comparing this situation with other prohibited right turns from side roads onto main roads at T junctions in Camden and here are two result which can be verified on Google Earth.

(i) Caversham Road into two way Kentish Town Road:- No Right Turn sign:- Correct. https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5488275,-0....6384!8i8192

(ii) Park Hill Road into one way Fleet Road:- Turn Left sign:- Correct:- https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5527947,-0....6384!8i8192
...and in case you wondered, yes, in the lower picture that IS by chance two of the councils tow-trucks queuing to add some cheer!.

In other words, Camden are aware of what it should be.

Finally I dug up this case in Havering which relates directly to the difference between a directional and a prohibition sign..... http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t87831.html

A look at the picture of the junction from this angle below clearly indicates that applying that judgement to the above misplaced signs, even if they were compliant, one could clear the signs by driving as close to the front of the blue car across the road before turning on full lock. Food for thought.

This post has been edited by madandy: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 13:01
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cp8759
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 20:27
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Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll get hold of the video.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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madandy
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 20:27) *
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll get hold of the video.


The video will not help because the pictures are a true representation of my trajectory. On that basis I am looking to use their failure to make it available to all (along with the other points raised) to catch them in anticipation of an initial rejection (as I have done before) thus.....

I itemise and raise a handful of other points. In their notice of rejection they send a reply loaded with copy and paste rhetoric. I discovered that when councils who outsource correspondence to scores of miles away those replying are in no position to physically check the facts resulting in such replies. I then reply claiming that they have committed a procedural impropriety by failing to respond to individual points raised thus fettering my ability to make an informed decision as to whether to pay the discounted penalty or not and add proof of that by googling phrases they use to find other examples of a "copy and paste" replies. This solicits, especially with TFL, an offer to extend the period for paying the reduced penalty which is akin to damage limitation.

Perhaps I ought to relate something irrelevant but of interest from 1973.

I used to commute down Perrins Lane and turn right into Hampstead High Street... the very same turn. One morning as I drove down following two cars I noticed two sparkling new "No Right Turn" signs. The two cars in front of me turned right but I felt uneasy and turned left then after about 20 yards swung round and did a U-turn and then sailed past the other two cars which had been stopped by hiding policemen. That was day one of that restriction coming into play!

I'll send you the PCN details privately as requested.
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Neil B
post Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 23:07
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QUOTE (madandy @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:18) *
In their notice of rejection

Have you mentioned a rejection ? Where is it?

QUOTE (madandy @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:18) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 20:27) *
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll get hold of the video.


The video will not help because the pictures are a true representation of my trajectory.

the unreadable image of pictures tells us nothing.

Get vid as asked.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 08:23
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QUOTE (madandy @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:33)
One thing I have not mentioned is the circumstances and my thinking. I had stopped to pickup someone and texted him my location in the first pic. I was about to get out and find him when he showed up within a minute. There was a queue of traffic
and when he got in I actually aimed to turn left but somebody gave way to me instantly with the gap in the traffic actually more to my right... over-polite. I remember thinking there was no sign because I could not see it owing to it's angle and wondering if it had gone.I then had the idea to turn left on the wrong side of the road to turn the next right into Gayton Road a few yards up. However, as I moved I decided to do the right turn and head up to to Prince Arthur Road. and the rest as they say is hiostory.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AWJOhkWljQ

So here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5556875,-...33;8i8192?hl=en

In the video it looks like the sign might be angled away from the road, so it would be useful to get an up to date picture if you're at all able to get one.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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madandy
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 19:42
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a few quick points to knock put.

(i) The video clearly shows me reversing at first to avoid the car pulling away then the passenger getting in. At no point with the angle of the sign is the directional arrow visible before moving forwards.

(ii) There is no evidence of any signage in conjunction with the video or the still photographs..... i.e neither the video nor stills give any evidence of any contravention.

(iii) Having seen the video I am of the opinion that staying in denial about not being able to see it due to Camden's lack of embrace of Google Chrome may be a better tactic that relating to the video which actually adds nothing nor detracts from my case otherwise.

(iiii) There remains the issue of incorrect signage as confirms by both the google images and by the incorrect contravention. In respect of that issue (and as an aide) that of http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=133173 comes very much into play. The latter example begs the question as to whether there should be a direction sign or a prohibition sign given that the "central reservation" stops half way across the junction.

This post has been edited by madandy: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 19:46
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madandy
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 19:54
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 23:07) *
QUOTE (madandy @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:18) *
In their notice of rejection

Have you mentioned a rejection ? Where is it?

QUOTE (madandy @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 22:18) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 20:27) *
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman and we'll get hold of the video.


The video will not help because the pictures are a true representation of my trajectory.

the unreadable image of pictures tells us nothing.

Get vid as asked.


Has not reached the Notice Of Rejection stage. I mentioned it in the context of my learning through experience that raising 4-8 points to councils who outsource their responses to long distances away results in them ignoring then which is a procedural impropriety.

The video link has been posted now.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 20:05
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Your PCN is failing to drive in the direction of an arrow on a blue sign and that is the sign in place you can argue that it is in the wrong lace bat as to your other points

The date of notice is correct for these regs

There is no requirement to supply video, that they say they will would make a difference if the didn't but they have

there is no requirement to state other grounds for representations within the regs

PI is not a ground for representations in these regs


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