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Parking Ticket: Liverpool City Council Old Hall Street
liverpool50
post Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 12:38
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So, I stopped to pick something up from a friends house. Tried to buy a ticket using the machine but the card facitliy did not work on this machine, nor the one down the road.

By the time I got back, this delight had been popped on my windscreen.

Should I just pay up? Or do you think I have rights to appeal? I think it's completly unfair that the the council have advertsided a way to pay, not been able to provide the service and expect me to pay the charge!

Thanks,

M

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post Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 12:38
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 14:50
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Looking on GSV that street only appears to be "Pay at Machine" so there is not a pay by phone option.
The OP should challenge on two fronts:-
1) The Prendi case (see below);
2) A Code 06 contravention is not really sustainable.


1) 2100346960 (Prendi)

A contravention occurs if a vehicle is parked in an on-street pay and display bay during controlled hours, without clearly displaying a valid pay and display voucher.



There is no dispute that Mr Prendi's vehicle was at this location in Linden Gardens or that the Penalty Charge Notice was issued to it, as shown in the photographs/digital images produced by the Enforcement Authority.


Mr Prendi says that he went to the pay and display machine but it was not working out of order and so he went to look for another machine but there was no other one near. Mr Prendi adds that the next one is over a mile away.


Mr Prendi says that he left a note to this effect in the vehicle. The civil enforcement officer has not recorded details of any note but the images appear to confirm one may have been there.


The Enforcement Authority do not appear to dispute that the pay and display was not working and have produced no maintenance records in this regard. The Enforcement Authority do refer to the signage on the machine, advising the motorist that if 'not working use another machine'.


Whether there is another machine within a reasonable distance will depend on the circumstances and each case will turn on its own facts. However, the Enforcement Authority cannot expect motorists to tramp the streets of their borough trying to find a machine in working order. Going too far away from the parking place may indeed involving entering a different parking zone where, restrictions and charges could differ.

Considering carefully all the evidence before me, I cannot find as a fact that, on this particular occasion, a contravention did occur.


Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.
2) Contravention.
The core Order from 2009 indicates that a ticket must be purchased and displayed i.e one follows the other. The contravention given only relates to non display "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher" and I do not believe that the core Order specifies this exact contravention.

The correct contravention is either a Code 11"Parked without payment of the parking charge" or a Code 12 "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge".

So I would argue that the wrong contravention has been given.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 - 14:51
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cp8759
post Sun, 1 Mar 2020 - 18:37
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The problem I see is that the council will state the motorist should pay using coins and not having any change is no defence.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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liverpool50
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 18:14
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Thanks. I have replied, based on your advice Mick. I'll keep updated on develpoments.
Thanks,

Mark
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liverpool50
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 20:54
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Hello all,

So an update on this. LCC have come back with their rejection of my appeal and sent this letter attached.

They have rejected my appeal on the basis that I should have used the ring and go parking service and that they can find no evidence that the machine was not working.
I have the following points to raise:

1. From what I understand, the council aren't allowed to charge extra for payments or fines. To use the ring and pay system, there is a surcharge of 20p, which isn't much but I object to on principle. Would this be grounds for appeal?

2. I have provided evidence that the machine was not working by the nature of the picture which I took as the machine refused to accept payment.

3. The rejection letter does not advise of adjudicator's power to accept a late appeal - (as per the PCN Spreadsheet).

Would you kindly advise if you think I have a valid case here?

Thanks





Attached File(s)
Attached File  Feb_Parking_Ticket_Redacted.pdf ( 281K ) Number of downloads: 27
 
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stamfordman
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 21:03
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The rejection is dated 9 June so I presume you have decided to wait for the notice to owner. They are being rather slow. They have 6 months from the PCN date to serve an NTO and it's gone past 4 months now.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Jul 2020 - 21:09
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The 20p surcharge is for paying to park not the penalty so that's not a goer And though i cant open your PDF i suspect that you are only at informal rejection so it does not need to inform you of any adjudicators powers.

Your best bet is still the faulty machine You made a claim that the machine was not working They need to provide evidence that they checked and it was not just say it was and that you can pay by phone. I've not checked but others say that's not a option and if it was how could you fail to display a ticket you do not get if you pay by phone so as per mick wrong contravention



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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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liverpool50
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 18:39
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Hi,
I was going to reply with the following. Please let me any thoughts.

QUOTE
Dear Liverpool City Council,
I am writing to lodge a formal appeal to the ticket that was issued in February, in response to the rejection I received in June. I am appealing on two grounds.

1. As originally stated, the ticket machine was not working. I tried twice to make payment using the card facility on this machine, both of which produced the same error as pictured. You have stated that the machine was checked to be working, however, have not provided any evidence to support this.

2. The contravention code is incorrect. The Core Order on which the contravention code is based indicates that a ticket must be purchased and displayed i.e one follows the other. The contravention given only relates to non-display "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher". The correct contravention code is in fact
'11 - Parked without payment of the parking charge'.

Therefore, I request that the ticket is cancelled on the ground of my informal appeal - that the ticket machine was not would not allow me to pay by card as advertised. However, I further suggest that the ticket is not valid because the incorrect contravention code has been selected.

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 19:03
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Wait for the notice to owner. You must stick to the correct procedure


--------------------
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liverpool50
post Fri, 31 Jul 2020 - 21:06
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Sorry, this is in response to the NTO, which I got last week. Apologies that this was not clear.
Thanks so much for the help.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 17:46
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Did you provide a copy of the photo showing the error message on the machine together with your informal representation?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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liverpool50
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:20
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Hello CP,
Yes, I did (see link below). Whenever I tried to use the card reader the transaction would start to go through, but an error message stating the card machine was out of service would be displayed.

https://ibb.co/sg2fdXK

I informed the council of this who said that the machine was checked and they had no evidence of an error.

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:57
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I think you should enhance your point re the contravention by mentioning that they say the PBP was checked and no payment recorded, make the point that the option was not available but as the council claim it was then non payment not non display can be the only contravention for you could not PBP and display in any event


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 22:19
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If the photo was provided I think we have a failure to consider, they don't even try to explain it away they've just ignored it.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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liverpool50
post Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 23:05
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I checked today, and pay by phone looks like it was available. However, I did not use this, because I wanted to pay by card and object to having to spend several mins trying to use a poorly designed system and then pay 20p for the privalege.

I agree that the contravention is incorrect - will big up on this.

100% agree - I don't the evidence has been considered at all!

This post has been edited by liverpool50: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 23:32
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 13:31
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Post a revised draft.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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liverpool50
post Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 19:14
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Thanks for the advice guys. See below.

I am writing to raise a formal appeal in response to the Notice To Owner, which was issued to me on July 14th.

I am appealing because I believe that the ticket was issued unfairly. As I originally stated in my informal appeal, I went to drop something off at my partner's flat on my way to work. I parked over the road from a parking meter. As it was past 8 am, and a parking ticket was required, I crossed the road to try and purchase a ticket with my card. However, the card machine did not work, reading 'Out of Service' on the card reader.

At this point, I had three options -
1. to walk to the nearest cash machine to withdraw cash and get change for the meter,
2. to use the pay by phone service,
or 3. walk to the next meter to pay by card.

As the council point out on their website - not having change is not a reason for not purchasing a ticket.

Therefore, I turned to option two. I did not use this the pay by phone system because it takes approx 5 mins to register your car and card to use, and furthermore there is a 20p surcharge, which further adds to the cost of parking. Therefore, I decided to walk to the next meter to purchase a ticket using my card as planned, as is permitted and suggested if the machine is not working. However, the card machine did not work there either.

On returning to the car, I saw that I had been served a ticket for failure to purchase and display a valid ticket.

I have provided a photo, which shows that the machine was out of order. You have stated that the machine was checked to be working, however, have not provided any evidence to support this or detailed how it was checked. I alleged that the council have failed to consider all evidence because an explanation of my time-stamped photo, proving the machine was not working has been ignored.

Secondly, I appeal on the grounds that the contravention code is incorrect. The Core Order on which the contravention code is based indicates that a ticket must be purchased and displayed i.e one follows the other. The contravention given only relates to non-display "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher". The correct contravention code is in fact '11 - Parked without payment of the parking charge'.

Therefore, I request that my informal appeal is reconsidered, and this Notice To Owner is cancelled.

Thanks
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cp8759
post Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 20:18
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Revised draft:

QUOTE (liverpool50 @ Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 20:14) *
I am writing to raise a formal representation in response to the Notice To Owner, which was issued to me on July 14th.

I am making a representation because I believe that the ticket was issued unfairly. As I originally stated in my informal appeal, I went to drop something off at my partner's flat on my way to work. I parked over the road from a parking meter. As it was past 8 am, and a parking ticket was required, I crossed the road to try and purchase a ticket with my card. However, the card machine did not work, reading 'Out of Service' on the card reader.

At this point, I had two options -
1. to use the pay by phone service, or
2. walk to the next meter to pay by card.

As the council points out on its website, not having change is not a reason for not purchasing a ticket, so going for change was not an option.

I did not use the pay by phone system because it takes approx 5 mins to register your car and card to use, and furthermore there is a 20p surcharge, which further adds to the cost of parking. As I was entitled to make payment by card, I decided to walk to the next meter to purchase a ticket using my card as planned, as is permitted and suggested if the machine is not working. However, that card machine did not work there either.

On returning to the car, I saw that I had been served a ticket for failure to purchase and display a valid ticket.

I have provided a photo, which shows that the machine was out of order. You have stated that the machine was checked to be working, however, you have not provided any evidence to support this or detailed how the machnie was checked.

In the informal rejection letter the council has failed to consider all the evidence because there has been no explanation or rebuttal of my time-stamped photo, proving the machine was not working, indeed this evidence has been ignored and that amounts to a failure to consider and a procedural impropriety.

Lastly, the contravention code is incorrect. The Core Order on which the contravention code is based indicates that a ticket must be purchased and displayed i.e one follows the other. The contravention given only relates to non-display "Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher". The correct contravention code is in fact '11 - Parked without payment of the parking charge'.

For each of the above reasons, the penalty charge must be cancelled.


This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 20:19


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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liverpool50
post Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 18:07
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LCC have replied with this today:

QUOTE
'The Civil Enforcement Officer checked the pay and display machine and found that this was working fine as it was accepting coins, although I have checked the event log for the machine and can confirm that the card reader was not working, however, this would not be grounds to cancel the PCN as there were alternative methods available to you to purchase time for parking'


My issue is that I was trying to pay using the alternative methods when the ticket was issued!

'[quote] you did not supply a photograph of any pay and display machine at the informal stage. You have only provided this photograph at the formal stage and the photograph does not show the location or time or date, therefore there is nothing to indicate that the photograph was taken on the date of the contravention./quote]

I did provide the information at the informal and formal appeal. The photographs show in the metadata that the photos were taken at the time that the ticket was issued. Are the council insinuating that I just take random photographs of faulty parking meters for cases like this?

I feel that I have an appeal on the grounds of:
1. The Prendi Case
2. Procedural Impropriety - the contravention code is incorrect
3. The council haven't mentioned the adjudicator's ability to accept a late appeal.

Please let me know any thoughts.





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liverpool50
post Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 18:42
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I realize that I did not post the rejection letter. Please see attached.

QUOTE
'The Civil Enforcement Officer checked the pay and display machine and found that this was working fine as it was accepting coins, although I have checked the event log for the machine and can confirm that the card reader was not working, however, this would not be grounds to cancel the PCN as there were alternative methods available to you to purchase time for parking'


My issue is that I was trying to pay using the alternative methods, as allowed when the ticket was issued!

QUOTE
you did not supply a photograph of any pay and display machine at the informal stage. You have only provided this photograph at the formal stage and the photograph does not show the location or time or date, therefore there is nothing to indicate that the photograph was taken on the date of the contravention


I did provide the information at the informal and formal appeal. The photographs show in the metadata that the photos were taken at the time that the ticket was issued. Are the council insinuating that I just take random photographs of faulty parking meters for cases like this?

I feel that I have an appeal on the grounds of:
1. The Prendi Case
2. Procedural Impropriety - the contravention code is incorrect
3. The council hasn't mentioned the adjudicator's ability to accept a late appeal.

Please let me know any thoughts.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/haa1uzg17gtocbk/1...dacted.pdf?dl=0
Attached File(s)
Attached File  190A12055DA19___redacted.pdf ( 704.96K ) Number of downloads: 17
 
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