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code 31 stopping in box junction fine Camberwell London
DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:24
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Thanks in advance,

I have received a Penalty Charge Notice for Contravention code:31 Camberwell New Road / Warner Rd / Camberwell PSG > London on the 16th Feb 2020 @ 18.28 hrs

"entering and stopping in a box when prohibited"

The CCTV screen shots suggest I was stopped in the box for only 2 seconds.

Looking at the road marking from google maps, the road markings are fairly worn out, is this reasonable grounds to contest?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4745888,-0....6384!8i8192

Just wondering if I should contest this, and what the recommended process is, or should I just pay up?

Any advice welcome, thanks.

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This post has been edited by DrOetker: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:58
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post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:24
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cp8759
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:25
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As per every other thread on here, to receive proper advice please post the PCN in full (all sides of all pages), just redact your name and address.

Also download the video using Flash Video Downloader https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/f...jenkahhlhccpdbc and post it up, use a site like youtube or vimeo to hosts it.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:02
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Thanks for your reply and patients.

I've tired to edit the post above with the photos of the PCN and the 3 stills from the TFL website as there isn't a video.

Thank you

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:07
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post a gsv I can't find it from the location given


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DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:34
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does this link not work ?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4745888,-0....6384!8i8192

I tried to upload a screen grab from street view but i don't have enough space to upload another photo.

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Neil B
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:38
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QUOTE (DrOetker @ Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:34) *

Oh. Now that's interesting!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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MrChips
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:58
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That's an unusual layout.

For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a) at a junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
© along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

What's it for?
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DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:03
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I suspect its to allow clearance for buses to access the bus garage (the entrance on the right hand side )

This post has been edited by DrOetker: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:04
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MrChips
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:07
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I don't think that can be right - as the regulations I cut and pasted state it should only be used for that purpose outside a fire/police/ambulance station.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:15
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I still wonder about the location, what's Warner rd and Camberwell psg got to do with anything And regardless of the rights and wrongs of the box. I think there is no vires to place it there by the way. It extends to far and I would say from the photo you were beyond the entrance which would be the limit of the junction if this was a legal box


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DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:17
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Thats is interesting because its hard to fathom what other purpose it could serve. The opposite side of the street is a puregym/residential with no access for cars etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4744879,-0....6384!8i8192
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DrOetker
post Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:27
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just saw this, seems like someone else also believes the box junction isn't within code


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/auth...yellow_box_junc

This post has been edited by DrOetker: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 00:12
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cp8759
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 09:15
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Call TFL and ask for the video, you'll be sent a DVD in the post and the penalty will be put on hold while you wait. If the location is correct, the box is invalid and unenforceable, I've looked at this in detail quite recently.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DrOetker
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 10:15
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Thanks for your advice, that sounds promising. I've done as you suggested and requested the DVD, TFL have placed the penalty on hold for 14 days.
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MrChips
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 20:23
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The FOI request has been responded to - no authorisation for the box found.
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cp8759
post Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 22:29
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QUOTE (DrOetker @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 10:15) *
Thanks for your advice, that sounds promising. I've done as you suggested and requested the DVD, TFL have placed the penalty on hold for 14 days.

Any update on the DVD?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 14:37
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As I said


2200070958 Camberwell New Road / Warner Road / Camberwell Passage


At this scheduled personal hearing the Appellant attended in person but the Enforcement Authority did not attend and were not represented.


Under Paragraph 11(1) in Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 a box junction marking conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box marking due to the presence of a stationary vehicle.


The Penalty Charge Notice was issued under Section 4(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 on the basis of information provided by a camera or other device).


The Enforcement Authority’s case is that the contravention occurred at the junction of "Camberwell New Road with Warner Road and Camberwell Passage".


The Appellant says that there is no box junction marking at the junction of Camberwell New Road with Warner Road and Google Street View confirms this.


The images clearly show that the vehicle did enter this box junction marking, wherever it is, and then had to stop within the box due to the presence of a stationary vehicle.


However, I cannot find as a fact that the contravention specifically stated on the face of the Penalty Charge Notice.


Accordingly this appeal must be allowed.


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DrOetker
post Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:48
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Thanks for all your comments and updates. I only received the dvd recently as it was initially signed for by my neighbour. However I've not managed to view it because I don't have access to a dvd player currently. I spoke with TFL who have advised to file my counter argument anyway. I checked the road markings recently with the CCTV photos and I believe we're talking about the same box junction.

@ PASTMYBEST - is the argument you detailed here regarding the lack of clear markings or the legitimacy of the box junction placement?

Many thanks,

Graham
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:55
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QUOTE (DrOetker @ Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:48) *
Thanks for all your comments and updates. I only received the dvd recently as it was initially signed for by my neighbour. However I've not managed to view it because I don't have access to a dvd player currently. I spoke with TFL who have advised to file my counter argument anyway. I checked the road markings recently with the CCTV photos and I believe we're talking about the same box junction.

@ PASTMYBEST - is the argument you detailed here regarding the lack of clear markings or the legitimacy of the box junction placement?

Many thanks,

Graham



Where it is, the adjudicator found there is no box junction at the location specified


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DrOetker
post Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 18:05
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Ok thats interesting. Do you have any advice regarding how to word the appeal?

Thanks
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