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L B Camden Code 21s Parking in Suspended Bay
crxvtec
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 22:46
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Camden have issued a ticket at 8:02 for parking in a suspended bay.

My dad parked the car there the previous evening and didn't see the signage. Looking at the photos they look to have slipped down the pole a fair bit but I can't see any regulation height for the signs.

It's a big parking bay, there are two timeplates. The suspension sign was affixed only to one of them.

Photos of PCN, the CEO's photos and my photos are here:
https://ibb.co/album/iaVGVa

Thanks in advance.

C.
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post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 22:46
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 23:09
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The 10 minute statutory grace period applies so the PCN should not have been issued


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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 08:24
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OP-----read this one:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1440251

There are alternative views on this , some by adjudicators, so it is worthwhile reading some of the suspension threads in this Forum.


Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 10:32
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My argument with these contraventions is as follows:
I accept that my vehicle was parked at the location at 0837 and that but for the '10-minute' rule set out below it would be liable to a penalty.

However,
In order for the suspension to be lawful it must be applied to a designated parking place. It is axiomatic that if it is not so designated then no power to suspend exists;
The next consideration for the authority is whether suspension removes the location's designated status. I refer the authority to the decision in the case of Thorpe v LB Croydon, case 1970311100, where it was held that 'The definition of "parking space" is not limited by time, so once an area of highway is so designated, it remains such 24 hours a day.'. This is a Key Case at ETA and therefore it would be brave council officer who decided to ignore this principle, possibly based on nothing more than the mantra of 'one adjudicator's decision is not binding on another'.

Therefore, at the time of the contravention the location lay within a designated parking place;

I would then refer the authority to the provisions of the General Regulations which state that where a contravention occurs an authority are prohibited from demanding a penalty until a period of 10 minutes has elapsed since the contravention commenced. This prohibition applies in the following circumstances:

..in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

Therefore in order to determine whether the authority were prohibited from demanding a penalty all that has to be established is whether:
The contravention is of a type mentioned in paras. (a) to © of para(1);
The vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

In this case the contravention falls under (1)(a):

Imposition of penalty charges
4. Subject to the provisions of these Regulations a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle where there has been committed in relation to that vehicle—
(a)a parking contravention within paragraph 2 of Schedule 7 to the 2004 Act (contraventions relating to parking places in Greater London);


The next consideration for the authority is whether the vehicle has been left beyond the 'permitted parking period' which is defined in the regs as follows:
(b) “permitted parking period” means—

(i) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place.”


My vehicle was parked prior to the normal restrictions coming into effect at 8.30 and therefore was parked in accordance with (b)(ii) above.

It had therefore been left beyond the 'permitted parking period' until the PCN was issued at 0837 which, by virtue of being a period of less than 10 minutes since permitted parking ended, renders the penalty and PCN void because the authority had no power to demand such a penalty until 0841.

It's long because, knowing this authority, it needs to address the limp excuses they're likely to use in support of saying niet.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 13:19
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crxvtec
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 21:14
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Thanks for the replies.

The ticket is issued at 8:01, not 8:37.

That being the case, it's presumably an over-zealous CEO as per Mad Mick's post, having observed for only 1 minute?

Thanks,

C.
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cp8759
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 11:18
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@crxvtec use hcandersen's draft, just changes the times to match your PCN:

I accept that my vehicle was parked at the location at 08:01 and that but for the '10-minute' rule set out below it would be liable to a penalty.
...
My vehicle was lawfully parked prior to the suspension restrictions coming into effect at 8 am and therefore was parked in accordance with (b)(ii) above.

It had therefore been left beyond the 'permitted parking period' until the PCN was issued at 08:01 which, by virtue of being a period of less than 10 minutes since permitted parking ended, renders the penalty and PCN void because the authority had no power to demand such a penalty until 08:11.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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crxvtec
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 13:03
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Hi all,

I've now received the standard response letter from Camden and uploaded it.

There's no acknowledgement of the grace period as the technicalities of when suspension commences has escaped them.

Regards,

C.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 13:57
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QUOTE (crxvtec @ Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 13:03) *
Hi all,

I've now received the standard response letter from Camden and uploaded it.

There's no acknowledgement of the grace period as the technicalities of when suspension commences has escaped them.

Regards,

C.


post the rejection all pages


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stamfordman
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 14:06
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rejection has been added -
https://ibb.co/album/iaVGVa
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crxvtec
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 19:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 13:57) *
QUOTE (crxvtec @ Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 13:03) *
Hi all,

I've now received the standard response letter from Camden and uploaded it.

There's no acknowledgement of the grace period as the technicalities of when suspension commences has escaped them.

Regards,

C.


post the rejection all pages

https://ibb.co/XsyqSGz
https://ibb.co/dG2TVvP
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 20:33
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Both these case have relevance to your case going forward

2160301304
The allegation in these proceedings was that this vehicle was parked in a suspended bay.
The appellant, who appeared before me today and who presented as a particularly honest and credible witness, raised the issue of signage stating that on parking with a disabled badge displayed in the vehicle she checked the bay plate to the front of the vehicle there being no suspension notice on the lamppost bearing it she believing that she had lawfully parked. She did not see the council's suspension notice which had been posted on a lamppost bearing a bay plate behind the vehicle (she pointing out that the sign as shown in her photographs was a reflection thereof the sign itself being posted at the corner of the road).
The motorist on parking is required to check signage but the council is under a corresponding duty to post signage that is clear.
I was satisfied on parking that the appellant checked signage to the front of her vehicle and had no reason to seek out further signage.
It seemed to me that in order to adequately sign this suspension the council should have posted a second suspension notice on the lamppost in front of the vehicle which on the photographic evidence before me appeared to serve this bay.
I was not satisfied as to the adequacy of signage in this case and found that the contravention had not been proved.
The appeal was accordingly allowed.

2170123723

I heard from Mr Pedro, the partner of the appellant at a hearing today.
The appellant makes several points about the validity of the suspension of this bay.
In the first place it is said that Ms MacDougall and Mr Pedro both parked the car together for the last time before the Christmas festivities on Christmas Eve in this bay immediately outside the lowrise flats where they live. It remained there until 6 January when the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. They are adamant that there was no suspension warning sign there on that day nor on any of the days upon which they walked past the bay over the Christmas period. The first that they were aware that there had been a suspension was when they discovered that the car had been removed, and they noticed the yellow suspension sign on the post some 3 or 4 vehicle lengths away. I found Mr Pedro an honest witness and gave weight to his evidence that there was no yellow suspension sign erected up to 14 days before the date of the suspension itself, as claimed by the Authority.
I have considered the officer's record as to the suspension, on which the council relies for the assertion that the suspension sign was indeed erected 14 days prior to 6 January. I note that the wording of the record is not in terms conclusive of the fact that a sign had been erected – it merely seems to confirm that an order for suspension had been made. To that extent therefore and taken together with the persuasive evidence of Mr Pedro I conclude that there is some confusion about when the suspension sign was in fact erected.
I also take into account Mr Pedro's evidence that during this period there were multiple suspensions erected over a period of time in this street and for short periods. It is in those circumstances well within the bounds of likelihood that the keeping track of the suspensions and necessary signage had become difficult.


There is force in the argument that the officer should have allowed a 10 minute period of grace before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice, in line with Section 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015. This is the provision which applies where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and been left beyond the permitted parking period. The crucial element is that the initial parking must have been lawful. In this case a course it was, at the time the vehicle was left the suspension was not actually in force, even if there is debate about when the warning sign was erected. The suspension came into force at 8 AM on the morning of 6 January and the PCN was issued at 8:02 AM. In the circumstances I conclude that the issue of this PCN was not compliant with the requirements of the "10 minute grace period" regulations and that the appeal could be allowed on that basis.

A final point is on the wording of the sign itself. The appellant points out that it was imprecise, referring to the suspended spaces in relation to the numbers of properties on the opposite side of the street. This can be contrasted with a sign relating to a later suspension (one of the series) in the same bay, a photograph of which was produced by Mr Pedro and which refers to property numbers on the side of the street on which the bay is situated.

The council asked for a review claiming the adjudicator erred in law. this was not upheld and the original decision stands

This is an application for review by the Enforcement Authority on the basis that the original Adjudicator has erred in law.
In effect, Enforcement Authority ground is that the original Adjudicator should not have held that Regulation 4(3) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, as inserted by Regulation 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015, that no penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes, does apply.
The Enforcement Authority submit that when a bay is suspended, as was the position in this present case, the prevision cannot apply.
In many cases it will not and certainly will not if the vehicle is parked after the suspension comes into force.
In this case the suspension came into force at 08:00 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 08:02.
The vehicle was in a resident parking bay for which it was assigned a resident parking permit. The owner had paid to park their vehicle in the bay by purchasing the permit. It is irrelevant whether it is a physical or virtual permit. Regulation 4(4)(b) of the 2007 Regulations, as amended therefore applies because a period of parking that had been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place and that period ended at 08:00.
Considering the submission before me carefully I find no ground for review of the original Adjudicator’s decision, which therefor stands.




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crxvtec
post Wed, 4 Mar 2020 - 21:19
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My response, via the website, is as follows:

I am in receipt of your letter sent electronically on 4th March 2020 and wish to contest your statements as they contradict one-another: "You have mentioned the 10 minute grace period. However, this only applies in designated parking places. Once a bay has been suspended, it ceases to be a designated parking place. Therefore, the 10 minute grace period does not apply." The vehicle was parked in a designated parking place, as evidenced by your CEO's photographs, on Wednesday 5th February by another driver. The suspension commenced at 8am on Thursday 6th February. There is force in the argument that the officer should have allowed a 10 minute period of grace before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice, in line with Section 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015. This is the provision which applies where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and been left beyond the permitted parking period. The crucial element is that the initial parking must have been lawful. In this case of course it was; at the time the vehicle was parked there, i.e. the preceding day, the suspension was not actually in force. Thus, a 10 minute grace period would have been fitting and proper per the Regulations aforementioned. The alleged offence did not occur and the ticket should therefore be cancelled.
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cp8759
post Thu, 5 Mar 2020 - 11:53
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To continue, you need to wait for the Notice to Owner. If you're the registered keeper, all you need to do for now is check that the address on the V5C is correct. Do not assume that it is, physically go and check.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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crxvtec
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 23:06
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I got an email response. There won't be an NTO coming my way as it's a lease car.

The response is uploaded to the share: https://ibb.co/nrYv7zD

They're saying there's no grace period for suspended bays therefore the contravention did occur.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 23:54
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I would pay it at discount. What does the lease co say about PCNs?
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crxvtec
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 02:22
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 23:54) *
I would pay it at discount. What does the lease co say about PCNs?

Just that the liability sits with the lessee and that they will pass on details as needed.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 10:49
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QUOTE (crxvtec @ Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 02:22) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 20 Mar 2020 - 23:54) *
I would pay it at discount. What does the lease co say about PCNs?

Just that the liability sits with the lessee and that they will pass on details as needed.


And an admin fee no doubt


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cp8759
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 13:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 10:49) *
And an admin fee no doubt

Some companies refund the admin fee if the PCN is successfully challenged. In the current climate, it's also worth noting these is no "coronavirus defence" to the 56 day cut-off.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 16:23
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Go back to Mr Ali and ask for the legal basis for his assertion that a suspension de-designates a designated parking place. So far, all the authority have done is to make and repeat a statement and, given that this is totally contrary to an ETA Key Case and a purposive interpretation of the regulations, makes it all the more absurd. The authority cannot just define the law to suit their own purposes and you require them to provide compelling evidence to justify their position.
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crxvtec
post Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 22:59
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I've written my reply as follows:

Dear Mr. Ali,
I am in receipt of your letter sent by email on 20th March in which you state "There is no legal requirement for the vehicle to be observed or a grace period to be given to a vehicle parked in a suspended bay." Can you kindly provide the legal basis for your assertion that a suspension de-designates a designated parking place?

So far, all the council has done is to make and repeat a statement and, given that this is totally contrary to an ETA Key Case and a purposive interpretation of the regulations, makes it all the more absurd. The council cannot define the law to suit its own purposes and I require the council to provide compelling evidence to justify its position.

The legislation I am relying upon is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made
"(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes." it is abundantly clear that the vehicle wasn't left in that place after the suspension started a few moments before the CEO applied a ticket to it, thus the vehicle was left in a recognised parking place that wasn't suspended at the time the vehicle was left. At 8:02am on the morning the ticket was applied, the vehicle had been left beyond the permitted parking period therefore no PCN can be issued until the 10 minute grace period has elapsed. The PCN is therefore invalid.
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