PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Parking bay suspension - inadequate signage
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 18:30
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Hi,

I received a PCN this morning for parking in a bay with partial suspension. My vehicle was also relocated but fortunately appears to be undamaged.

I believe I may be able to challenge the PCN because 1) The notification signs were inadequate 2) The notification period (< 1 day) was inadequate 3) The PCN was applied outside of the operating hours of the parking bay (09.00 - 20.00).


Parking notice


Parking notice position


Position of car prior to relocation


Sign to left of suspension notice


Sign to right


PCN

This road is usually very congested and the space I used was the only one available. I don't have any photos of the number of vehicles at the time of parking but I certainly didn't notice the sign at this point

I would appreciate any advice on how best to proceed

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 18:30
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 18:54
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,037
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



So when did you park there.

The suspension is a 24 hour one so hours of bay not relevant.

The suspension does have a date of yesterday so if it did go up then and you were parked before then you should get this cancelled.

Brighton though has scrapped its car pound I believe so a relocation doesn't mean you are in the clear.

Are those the council's pics - if not post them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 19:09
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Thanks for your reply

I parked at around 16.00 yesterday. I don't have the council photos yet but I will post once available
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 19:18
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,392
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



I think you can challenge on two points, that you parked before the sign went up and that there was inadequate notice of the suspension I would also question the logic of a suspension from midnight to midnight for a skip delivery That argument can be expanded upon with regard to the regulations requiring a temporary sign be removed when not needed Not clear cut but I would use it if you are to fight all the way


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 21:00
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Here are the council photos. There is an SUV parked in front of the sign, which is why I may not have seen it, if it was posted before I parked. I drove up the road in the direction the car is facing, before reversing into the space. I then crossed the road to reach my flat.









The Brighton council online form to appeal the PCN doesn't have the option of requesting further information. Are they required to record the time that the suspension notice is posted?

This post has been edited by CornflowerBlueTie: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 21:07
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 21:48
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,707
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Not relevant and let's not get distracted.

This is straightforward.

There is a parking place which extends from no. 31 to no. 49 Denmark Villas within which there are numerous traffic signs, one of which is situated o/s 35 with the next situated o/s no. 41.

I parked o/s no.39 facing towards no. 41. I did not see any suspension sign when I parked.

Subsequent to receiving the PCN, I noticed that there was a suspension sign on the post o/s 35. I rechecked the sign I saw and can confirm that there was no suspension sign o/s 41.

Clearly the council were obliged to place suspension signs at either end of the suspended area and not just one end, particularly when the post without the suspension sign is actually closer than the other.

Whether a simple mistake on the council or their contractor's part, I do not know. But the suspension was not signed as required and therefore no penalty is due and the PCN must be cancelled.

Just make sure that you can provide evidence of the signs, as your photos suggest, and it's all over bar the writhing of a disappointed council even if it has to go to adjudication.

Pl don't recite any legal references, regs or whatever, they're not necessary: the facts should convince even the most stupid of authorities.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 23:06
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Thank you, that's very helpful.

I will let you know how I get on with the challenge
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 23:29
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,725
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (CornflowerBlueTie @ Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 23:06) *
Thank you, that's very helpful.

I will let you know how I get on with the challenge

Brighton are well known for their venality, so you may have to take them to adjudication, but be of stout heart and don't just cough-up the discount.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 00:04
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Will do, I’ve been deeply disappointed with them so far. Have had more issues parking here in three months than I did in 12 years in London
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 12:41
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Brighton council have rejected the appeal at this stage:





It's a very generic response and doesn't address the specific point that the other signs in the bay, including that closest to the suspension, were not marked. They also claim that the suspension notice was > 48 hrs, which it was not.

According to their process, I now have to wait 14 days for them to send a Notice to Owner, before I can make a further appeal.

Is there anything I should be doing in the mean time?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 9 Apr 2020 - 12:02
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,889
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You've identified the main flaws in the council's response, but post it again showing everything apart from name & address as we might spot something else. The only other thing to do is physically check that the address printed on the V5C is correct.

Also it's not "their process", the process is set out in law and the council has to follow it at every step or else it loses.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gert
post Sat, 11 Apr 2020 - 17:17
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 114
Joined: 15 May 2019
Member No.: 103,884



The onus is on them to prove WHEN the advance warning sign was put up. There answer is general. They should be clear when it went up in this case, such as providing a timed photo or a CEO's log.

Lots of stock paragraphs that add no value in their response.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:14
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Thank you, here is the full reply:









Their own photo of the notification, as well as the date on the notification, are both < 24 hours before suspension period.

BW

John
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:55
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,707
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



And Wandsworth say there's legal requirement to give three days' notice!

Hey, ho, they must be blissfully happy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 11:56
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,889
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



So just wait for the Notice to Owner.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 5 May 2020 - 16:18
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



I've received the Notice to Owner now. In my representation I will repeat my original point that the suspension was not adequately signposted, as well as the inadequate notification period of less than 24 hours. Is there any additional information I should include?

Presumably this falls under "other grounds"?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 5 May 2020 - 16:32
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,392
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



No it falls under the contravention did not occur. If the signage is inadequate then the TRO is not legally enforceable so you cannot contravene it


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CornflowerBlueTi...
post Tue, 5 May 2020 - 20:17
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Joined: 18 Feb 2020
Member No.: 107,931



Are there any legal consequences of appealing on statutory grounds? i.e. if it's judged the appeal doesn't fall under this category, can it be rejected on a technicality?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 5 May 2020 - 20:55
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,392
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (CornflowerBlueTie @ Tue, 5 May 2020 - 21:17) *
Are there any legal consequences of appealing on statutory grounds? i.e. if it's judged the appeal doesn't fall under this category, can it be rejected on a technicality?


No but an adjudicator cannot find on other grounds that is the province of the council. You must trust us here, we have done this before


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 5 May 2020 - 21:00
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14,725
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (CornflowerBlueTie @ Tue, 5 May 2020 - 21:17) *
Are there any legal consequences of appealing on statutory grounds? i.e. if it's judged the appeal doesn't fall under this category, can it be rejected on a technicality?

Nope
If they reject your reps and don't re-offer the discount, (as they are entitled to do), you take them to adjudication where only the statutory grounds can be considered anyway. Cancellation on mitigating circumstances, (the "other grounds") is entirely within the council's power, but as they keep your money if they refuse, you can see consideration of mitigation is not unbiased.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 5 May 2020 - 21:01
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 2nd June 2020 - 01:43
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.