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CCTV PCN by Wandsworth Council
korama
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 16:34
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Hello Guys,
I received a PCN in the post for 52M failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle and i appealed on the basis that i wanted to gain access to disabled parking, but was rejected by the council. i just came across this forum today and found out that the notice of rejection was a template rejection. Also the signage link the council sent in the rejection notice shows me driving towards the back of the road sign.

i have appealed to the tribunal, and have received the evidence the council sent including the dvd. i have 5 days to submit further evidence to the tribunal.

Any chance i can get help here.

thank you
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post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 16:34
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stamfordman
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 16:46
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To get help post all the materials - PCN, correspondence and video, and the council's summary from the evidence park (i.e. the case summary/presentation for the adjudicator).

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

Are you attending the tribunal?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 16:47
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korama
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 16:59
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hello,
thank very much for the quick response, I am not going to the tribunal.

if you say post, do you mean post online or send them by mail.

thanks
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korama
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 18:44
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Hello here are the photos of the PCN, case summary by the council and notice of rejection. I’m working on the video as I do not have a DVD player. Is there a way I can send the video from the council PCN website to you.


https://ibb.co/vvbk1Kf
https://ibb.co/4MWPg5g
https://ibb.co/9n0c8Lw

Thank you for all your help
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 18:54
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What you have shown us so far is not likely to garner much sympathy with an adjudicator. Show us ALL of the PCN your representation the notice of rejection and all of the council summary

I see one error on the PCN that might help but need to see all


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korama
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 21:25
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Here’s the PCN in full and the photos

https://ibb.co/VSWRksz
https://ibb.co/41kKYBG
https://ibb.co/XkKxr10
https://ibb.co/zZvKpGj
https://ibb.co/k8K8Y2F

My appeal which was rejected by the council
https://ibb.co/df32hH8

Council’s notice of rejection
https://ibb.co/Zc085Bs
https://ibb.co/HhCmxvs

Case summary by council and further evidence

https://ibb.co/Jjmbqg9
https://ibb.co/jD22JyZ
https://ibb.co/hXSn1mt
https://ibb.co/GVF4ZkV
https://ibb.co/MCh9s4h

The representation that I made to the tribunal was that the contravention did not occur because coming from Comyn road, the blue signage is not clear that, you can’t enter St John’s road. The signage shows you can’t go to the end of the road.
Also the google maps link used as evidence on the rejection notice is wrong, entering Beauchamp road, I’m facing the back of the road sign.

Just realised from the google maps photos the council sent and also the PCN photos that there’s was a van parked on approach St John Road so no way of seeing the road sign, (if it counts).

Thanks
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hcandersen
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 08:20
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OP, this is confusing.

What is the alleged contravention?

The photos show a car, presumably yours, turning from St. John's into Beauchamp.

So what? Who cares?

There are no signs in St. John's at that point prohibiting this turn.

So far is the above correct i.e. no signs in St. John's at this location prohibiting a right turn into Beauchamp for vehicles of your class?

If so, is the council's case that you should not have been in that length of St. John's?

Big deal. You were, get over it!

Or is it that by virtue of being there you must have passed gateway signs either in St. John's prohibiting you from passing them or alternatively placed in an entrance road prohibiting your class of vehicle passing them?

I have no idea.

You started off referring to Comyn and then we see photos, but not of Comyn but of you some distance away.

In your own words pl explain what you think the contravention is, where it took place and show us the signs involved.

And when must your evidence be submitted??
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 08:59
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There is no doubt that the OP entered a restricted street:-

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4619016,-0....6384!8i8192

What bothers me is that the video shows her exiting that street further up St John's Road.

The crux of this case is whether the Council can rely on stock photos of the restriction sign or have to produce a video of the OP's vehicle actually passing the sign.


I am pretty sure that we had a Bank Junction case where the adjudicator ruled that if the video failed to show the vehicle passing the necessary sign then there was no evidence of the contravention.

Mick
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korama
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 09:48
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Hello,
I can’t post the video here because I don’t how to download it from the council’s website. Can I PM you with my details so that you can watch it or if you can post it here as well.


Also this is the google maps link https://goo.gl/maps/5mLQMbbeKKQ1VedK7 in the council’s rejection letter. They used the wrong signage. This photos https://ibb.co/NTxy5hr shows me driving facing the back of the above signage.

Really appreciate all the help.
Thanks
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 10:29
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PM me the details and I'll post video.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 10:47
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Those signs do not apply to vehicles entering from Comyn, they apply to vehicles travelling along St. John's. (IMO, no adj could reasonably find otherwise because those signs are not visible from anywhere else other than approaching head-on).

And the OP says they approached from Comyn
And the authority accept this.
And there are no signs in evidence to show that the required signs are present in Comyn or that any warning signs are present. I disregard the cul-de-sac signs as these are purely for information, they are not regulatory signs, items 5,6 and 7 of the Part 2 table refer:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/11/made

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 10:48
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 11:29
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The signs from Beauchamp Road (they still the same?) indicate access is allowed but the ones at the corner of Comyn Road say nothing about access even though they cover the same restricted area. If the latter signs had specified access then the OP could have reasonably made her way to the disabled bays in Beauchamp Road.

I think hca's point is worth pursuing in that the signs at the Comyn Road junction wouldn't be properly visible to someone turning left. The turn would be made before one realised they were in contravention.
These are some of the CCTV cases I mentioned. Much would depend on what the OPs video shows although an image of the back of the signs is not conclusive.

2190137866


A contravention can occur if a vehicle is driven so as to fail to comply with a prohibition on certain vehicles.

There appears to be no dispute that the vehicle was in Mansion House Street, as shown in the closed circuit television (cctv) images produced by the Enforcement Authority.

The Enforcement Authority have produced various plan and images of this complex junction but the vehicle is not seen to pass any sign, even shown from the opposite side, which relates to the library images.

The Adjudicator is only able to decide an appeal by making findings of fact on the basis of the evidence produced by the parties and applying relevant law.

Considering all the evidence before me carefully I cannot find as a fact that, on this particular occasion, a contravention did occur.

Accordingly this appeal must be allowed.


2190242598

The Appellant did not attend his personal hearing. There is no reason for me to postpone the hearing. I am proceeding in the Appellant's absence.

The CCTV recording did not show the Appellant driving past any restriction signs. the Authority has not provided any evidence tending to show that the Appellant must have done so.

I am bound to allow the appeal.


2180144730

The contravention alleged in these proceedings is that this vehicle failed to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle.

Upon the appellant disputing that the contravention occurred.

The council's online footage, upon which it relies, shows two vehicles moving through a set of traffic lights no applicable signage being visible. I accept that one of those vehicles is the appellant's its plate being shown in an image taken from that footage but there is nothing on it to indicate that the appellant's vehicle contravened any prohibition and I am not prepared to infer that it did.

I find that this contravention has not been proved and I allow this appeal.
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Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 11:34
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korama
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 11:32
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Hello Stamfordman,
I have sent the PM,


Hcandersen, you are right there's no way of seeing those signs unless approached head on.

so should i make the case based on that.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 12:11
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video

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 12:36
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Interesting.

The car seems to leap into existence beside the telephone boxes which of course are past the restriction signs.


I would contend that the video is inconclusive as evidence since it does not show the car going past the restriction signs.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 13:05
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The NoR has messed they say they will accept the discounted amount of £55 not sure it will help other than to question the standard of consideration

The council also state on the PCN that if the PCN is not paid within the 28day period they may then serve a CC. They may not, they can only serve a CC after 28 days beginning with the date of service. Some adjudicators accept this as a winning point some do not but it needs putting

The contravention is failing to comply with the prohibition. The road is prohibited so in that context you are in contravention, but how would you know. The blue signs do not count the restriction is signed by the flying motorbike signs and hidden behind scaffolding is not visible, particularly when watching pedestrians at the side of the road.

You have (for some reason) blanked out all dates and times we need these. Are you in the restricted area at the time shown on the PCN?


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korama
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 14:11
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Thanks Mick, I will submit that as further evidence.

Hello Pastmybest,
The time on the PCN is 11.57 as shown here https://ibb.co/mNhSvzC and the time I entered the contravention is 11:56 as shown here https://ibb.co/hW7tc5s

Thanks
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korama
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 15:08
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hello,
This is the draft for further evidence to be submitted to the tribunal. I have used all the suggestions to prepare it. Please have a look if its ok.


There are no signs in evidence to show that the required signs are present on Comyn Road or that any warning signs are present. The 4 images taken from google maps under Evidence Type J submitted by the council are purely for information, they are not regulatory signs, please refer to http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/11/made

Also, on the approach to St Johns Road, the restriction is hidden behind scaffolding and is not visible, particularly when watching pedestrians at the side of the road. There’s no way of seeing this sign if turning left, these signs are not visible from anywhere else other than approaching head-on.

Finally, the videos and still images under Evidence Type C is inconclusive as evidence since it does not show the car going past the restriction signs.

Thank you very much for all your help.

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korama
post Tue, 25 Feb 2020 - 10:23
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Hello Guys,
Just wanted to say thank you for all the help. My appeal was allowed on grounds that the photographic evidence from google maps submitted by the council had scaffolding obscuring the signage, and that there’s no way the sign is visibly clear from where I was turning. Thanks for all the help you guys are awesome.
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Incandescent
post Tue, 25 Feb 2020 - 10:55
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Well done !! Another one for Pepipoo.
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