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appeal a PCN - suspended bay, deciding whether to further appeal a PCN
mikekzzz
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:06
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hi all
hopefully you can help in some way smile.gif

so was looking for some PCN advice if at all possible

on 26 June 2018 I was given a PCN as I was parked in a bay that was suspended outside my flat

I replied to Camden council and noted that I was away – having left prior to the suspended sign going up and returning after it had been completed

Camden replied and said that if I can supply evidence of my being away they will take this into consideration.

I sent my travel documents to Camden and they acknowledged receipt of my support and accepted that they were happy I was away for the entire period in question – however for some reason they still my PCN

In the correspondence I was told it is my responsibility to be aware of suspensions but I had no way at all of being able to move my car at the correct time.

also i have a picture of when the actual sign was printed (as it said it at the bottom of the piece of paper stuck to the lamp post) and i was away even before this took place

They also told me that i should have signed up to the Camden alerts email that would tell me of upcoming suspensions

However there was also an issue with this part of the Camden website - i supplied Camden with a picture of the online site saying there was an error stopping me from signing up

I had tried to sign up to the alerts prior to going away and the site was down – however even if I had I still would have been away anyway and unable to move my car

I was told that I should have made arrangements for my car to be moved. I found this quite upsetting as I do not have anyone I can give my keys to who can move my car. I am the only person insured to drive my car and I don’t have any family nearby. Even if I did I wouldn’t want to do anything illegal but allowing people in my work car.

all of this formed part of my representation to challenge the PCN


this week i received a letter of a Notice of rejection of representations

they say that

'you have stated you were away when the advance warning sign was erected, and were therefore unaware of the suspension. However the terms and conditions for your resident permit explain that parking bays may be suspended from time to time. As such, it is the responsibility of the permit holder to consider what arrangements to make if leaving their vehicle when going away. if you are not aware, in addition to on-street notifications, we have an online register for parking suspensions where you can search by street name or Controlled Parking Zone. You can also sign up for our free courtesy email alert service for impending suspensions

i note you state you attempted several times to sign up, however the website came up with an error message, however as your permit was issued onb the 23/3/2019 it is reasonable to expect a driver to then contact the council to advise us that they are unable to sign up to the alert service. Please note that in the disclaimer for our e-alert service we explain "whilst we offer a courtesy email alert service, we cannot guarantee that all suspensions will be included. Suspensions booked at short notice are not likely to appear on the advertised list of planned suspensions. It remains the drivers responsibility to ensure they check on-street signage for upcoming suspensions or to ensure that where they intend to park, a suspension is not currently in operation". Given this and having checked that the signage for the suspension was clear, I am satisfied that the council have followed the correct procedure in the suspended bay for domestic removal'

they note that the sign was put up on the 26/6/19

however my support shows i was away when it went up

it says that i have to pay £130 in 28 days or if i disagree with the decision i can submit an appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators by following the instructions enclosed

if i choose to appeal an independent Adjudicator will consider my appeal based on the evidence. I should be aware that the Adjudicator can award costs in favour of either party if it is deemed that a party has acted in a vexatious, frivolous or wholly unreasonable manner





questions please


1 - do you think it is worth me going down the appeal route - or should i just pay the £130 and move on
2 - if i do appeal and i lose - will i just have to pay the £130 or will it be increased?
3 - is my case looked at in writing by the appeal personnel or do i have to attend some sort of hearing? or do i request a postal decision?


I do note that under 'grounds for appeal' i dont really fit in to any of them


so i guess i live in hope

thanks for taking the time to read this and for the advice!







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stamfordman
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:16
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You say 26 June 2018 for the PCN - presume you mean 2019.

What exactly have you received - you must have got a notice to owner?

Post the docs or at least the dates and a timeline of all correspondence sent and received.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:17
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Ok from what you have said they are spouting a load of tosh and know it many cases have won because the driver parked before the suspension But we cannot help with this without proper information.

Post the PCN
ALL photos
Your challenge
The further information proving you were away
The notice of rejection

post all pages and redact only personal information we need dates times and location


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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:17
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+1

Camden are notorious for these sort of shenanigans. They are trying to assert that signing up for the email service is mandatory and that a vehicle must be checked regularly as part of the permit "conditions". Neither of which is true.

OP-----don't pay. You were lawfully parked if your vehicle was in situ before the signs were erected. Give us the information and we advise you on the best way forward.

Mick
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DJ Lexy
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:40
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QUOTE (mikekzzz @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
if i choose to appeal an independent Adjudicator will consider my appeal based on the evidence.


You have evidence you were away before the sign went up. Give us some timescales. What date the sign go up? What dates were the suspension? What dates were you away for?

QUOTE (mikekzzz @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
I should be aware that the Adjudicator can award costs in favour of either party if it is deemed that a party has acted in a vexatious, frivolous or wholly unreasonable manner


"We acknowledge that you went away, but you should still somehow have magically moved your car. Or gotten someone else to move it, despite the fact that not everybody has friends and family nearby, and it might not be legal for them to drive your car on a public road if they're not insured on your car. But you should have done it anyway. And you should have used this alert service. But it wasn't working and that's your fault for not telling us. And we don't always put alerts on that system either. But you should have expected us to randomly suspend streets from time to time, and you should have seen the sign after you parked, even though you were away. And we're not cancelling because it's still your fault."

Sounds vexatious, frivolous and wholly unreasonable to me.

QUOTE (mikekzzz @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
1 - do you think it is worth me going down the appeal route - or should i just pay the £130 and move on
2 - if i do appeal and i lose - will i just have to pay the £130 or will it be increased?
3 - is my case looked at in writing by the appeal personnel or do i have to attend some sort of hearing? or do i request a postal decision?


1 - Almost certainly worth appealing. Depending on your dates. As mentioned above, let us know the timescales just to be sure.
2 - Nope, if you lose at the adjudicator, which it doesn't sound like you would, it's still £130. It only goes up to £195 if the council escalate it and issue a Charge Certificate, which they can't do until a couple of weeks after the adjudicator makes their decision.
3 - It can be in writing, or it can be in person. Up to you.

QUOTE (mikekzzz @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:06) *
I do note that under 'grounds for appeal' i dont really fit in to any of them


"The contravention did not occur". Because at the time you parked, the bay was not suspended nor was their any indication that it would be suspended.
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mikekzzz
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 23:14
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thanks for the replies
ill try and give some more detail now

PCN served 26 June 2019 parking in a suspended bay - suspended for domestic waste removal


27 June i appealed but only stating that i was parked in my residents bay and was confused why i received the PCN

16 July i received a reply saying that they are enforcing the notice as i was parked in a suspended bay - they uploaded the pictures of my car

16 July i replied

i received your e-mail that contained a PDF today - however the e-mail address it was sent from is a 'no-reply' e-mail address and in your letter there is no way of corresponding - except the number solely to pay the PCN however i am hoping you will read this an re-consider as i did not return home from a trip until the 27 June - after the suspension - and i left prior.
i am able to supply travel documentation also - please just let me know also, in your letter it says that i was outside numbers 40 to 42 - however there is no way of knowing that these are the numbers are there are no numbers present - which can be seen in your pictures -

i also have pictures that prove this too which i can also send if you need
I have also checked my parking permit on the Camden website and there is no further details that tells me about suspensions - and also when i click on help i get an error message - note i included a screen grab of the website not working

)also in your letter you offer a web address to assist with suspensions which i can copied and pasted below
camden.gov.uk/email-alerts-and-subscriptions.
however this is not a valid page

if you could please re-consider i would be very grateful especially as i was away at the time. thanks


7 august camden replied

I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because you were on holiday during this period, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.You have stated you were away when the advance warning sign was erected, and were therefore unaware of the suspension. However, the terms and conditions for your resident permit explain that parking bays may be suspended from time to time. As such, it is the responsibility of the permit holder to consider what arrangements to make if leaving their vehicle when going away.However, if you can provide evidence of when you were on holiday, we will review your case to determine whether an exemption can be applied on this occasion. Please provided evidence in the form of a flight, accommodation or trip booking, stating your name and the dates that you were away. If this can be provided, we will review your case. However, at present, with no evidence of the described circumstances, I must enforce the PCN. If you are not aware, in addition to on-street notifications, we have an online register for parking suspensions where you can search by street name or Controlled Parking Zone. You can also sign up for our free courtesy email alert service for impending suspensions atcamden.gov.uk/email-alerts-and-subscriptions


i replied on 8 August


i have received your letter 7 August 2019 - thanks for this. I have attached train tickets that show me leaving london on June 7 and returning 28 June. the parking suspension on Fitzjohns avenue was on the 26 June. I have signed up to the e-mail alerts so at least in future i will be aware on suspensions!thanks for all the help




2 september camden reply


I understand that you are contesting the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) because you were onholiday when the suspension signage was erected, but I have decided to enforce the Notice.The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle parked in Fitzjohn`s Avenue on 26/06/2019 at 09:30am in a bay suspended for a domestic removal.You have stated that you were away when the advance warning sign was erected and were therefore unaware of the suspension. You have also provided evidence of this, as requested. I have investigated further into this suspension and whilst I am satisfied that you were on holiday at the time the suspension signage was erected, the advanced warning signage was put in place 12 days prior to the commencement of the suspension, which we deem a sufficient period to alert drivers to the restrictions. The terms and conditions for your resident permit explain that parking bays may be suspended from time to time. As such, it is the responsibility of the permit holder to consider what arrangements to make if leaving their vehicle when going away for a long period of time.Whilst I appreciate that you were away from your vehicle when the signage was put in place,as the warning period was sufficient, it is the drivers responsibility to ensure that their vehicle is not parked within the suspension. As such, I am not satisfied that an exemption applies on this occasion and I am enforcing the PCN


5 september i reply


hi, thanks for your letter dated 2 September 2019.i appreciate you taking the time to get back to me again.In your letter you state that the advance warning sign was put up '12 days prior to the commencement of the suspension' - this is the 14th June.Also on the pictures you have attached - regarding the picture that shows the details of the suspension it says at the bottom - printed on 10 June 2019.From the evidence i have supplied previously - my train travel details - I was away from home even before the notice was printed.I live alone and do not have close friends or family nearby. As such, I do not have anyone who would go and check suspension signs and even move my car for me - as i am the person insured on it (it is not my own car but used through work to travel)I have already managed to sign up to the e-mail alerts to try and stop this happening again in thefuture. Also it is unusual for me to be away for just under 3 weeks - i had work and then a family emergency out of London.If there is any way you could reconsider the fine i would be so very grateful


27 september they reply

Thank you for your e-form submission received on 06/09/2019. Our records indicate that a response has previously been sent to you on 02/09/2019 enforcing this Penalty Charge Notice(PCN). If you wish to submit a further challenge than kindly wait for the issuance of the Notice to Owner (NTO) document which will be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle. For useful information on driving and parking in Camden visit camden.gov.uk/parking

i then received a notice to owner on 9 december

i made representation to Camden parking operations 6 January 2020 where i wrote


To whom it may concern,
I am writing with the hope that this representation is allowed. For your reference I have included below the back and forth between myself and the Camden PCN team
Essentially on 26 June I was given a PCN as I was parked in a bay that was suspended.
In appendix 5 you can see that I replied to Camden and noted that I was away – having left prior to the suspended sign going up and returning after it had been completed
In appendix 4 Camden note that if I can supply evidence of my being away they will take this into consideration.
Appendix 3 is me sending my travel documents to Camden and appendix 2 is Camden acknowledging receipt of my support and accepting that they are happy I was away for the entire period in question – however for some reason they still upheld it
In the correspondence I was told it is my responsibility to be aware of suspensions but I had no way at all of being able to move my car at the correct time.
I did also try and sign up to the Camden alerts on numerous occasions – however as can be seen in appendix 5 there was an issue with the Camden website which didn’t allow me.
I had tried to sign up to the alerts prior to going away and the site was down – however even if I had I still would have been away anyway and unable to move my car
In appendix 2 I was told that I should have made arrangements for my car to be moved. I found this quite upsetting as I do not have anyone I can give my keys to who can move my car. I am the only person insured to drive my car and I don’t have any family nearby. Even if I did I wouldn’t want to do anything illegal but allowing people in my work car.
In appendix 1 I also note that the date the original suspension sign was printed was even after I had gone away
I really hope this PCN can be overturned – especially as I was told that if I sent in evidence of not being home it would be taken into consideration – but this did not happen. I also was not able to sign up to the alerts that I was told to do – and I feel that I shouldn’t be disadvantaged because I didn’t have someone to move my car for me – which in itself would have been illegal

note that the appendices were pictures of my evidence




then on 4 February 2020 i received a notice of rejection of representation saying i can appeal to the environment and traffic adjudicators


let me know if i need any more
thanks again all








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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 12:41
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you need to post the documents, and the photos Many appeals are won because these are not correct

create a one drive folder or some such and link it to here


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cp8759
post Yesterday, 11:45
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 12:41) *
you need to post the documents, and the photos Many appeals are won because these are not correct

create a one drive folder or some such and link it to here

+1, nobody is going to read transcripts, you need to post the actual documents. Use one drive, dropbox, google drive or similar.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mikekzzz
post Today, 02:03
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have included 12 pictures in chronological order starting from 1
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hcandersen
post Today, 09:33
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My God, what a mess.

OP, now to our agenda!

You posted a NTO dated 29 Nov addressed to the Company Sec, Hitachi.....

You posted a challenge dated 26 June in which you stated that your 'relationship to vehicle' was 'registered keeper'

No it is not and this must be resolved before anything else.

You are not the Company Sec because this is not a person, it is a legal concept i.e. a prescribed form of words to be used when the registered keeper is an incorporated body.

Therefore although you could submit a challenge as the recipient of the PCN you could not submit reps on the basis of the NTO you've posted.

And if you did not receive a NTO in your name then your reps, their consideration, the NOR and the whole ball of wax is void.

So you have only two questions to answer:

did you receive a NTO in YOUR name?

if not, how did you obtain the NTO which you've posted?

And your argument regarding the contravention is tosh IMO. You were away for an extended period and the detail of the dates signs went up is a red herring. If you park on a carriageway ANYWHERE then you must make arrangements for your vehicle to be checked or risk the consequences. That this would have been difficult is not the law's issue, it's yours. I know it sounds harsh, but I cannot see any point dancing around the point.

And as for signing up.....!
Even if this was a defence, which it isn't, then the law would say that there was a whole range of alternatives available to you e.g. phone, email, personal visit etc, none of which you took. Your approach as described in the context of such an extended absence was minimalistic at best.
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mikekzzz
post Today, 17:42
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hello

so i have attached the e-mail i received from hitachi which had the NTO included in the email

i replied saying i was going to contest it
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