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PCN for Suspended Parking, PCN for Suspended Parking
hjuk
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:35
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I've just been given a ticket for parking in a s suspended parking bay.

I came beck from three weeks away just two days ago. Last night as I was pulling up outside my house I noticed that parking was suspended for ten houses on my side starting this morning. So I moved to the other side and parked.

This morning my neighbour texted me to tell me that I needed to move my car - too late however to prevent me getting a parking ticket. Apparently parking has also been suspended on the other side. However, whilst the notices are easy to see on my side, they are not so on the other side. There are two notices about 50m apart. One has slipped down the lamp post and was hidden by a parked car. The other was far enough up the road, I just didn't notice it. The signs on each side only referenced the suspension on the sid eon which they were displayed.

Do I have any grounds for appeal?
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post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:35
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Incandescent
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 12:49
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Grounds for appeal wouls be inadequate signage on the sign you parked. You saw the signs on your side, but not on the other side. You need to give some sort of indication of where the signs were on both sides.

Post up the PCN so we can look for fatal errors of content. Post any photos if you have them, and also the councils ones if they are available
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:26
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OP-----need to get a photo of the suspension sign OR any Notices (A4 sheets in plastic, cable tied to lamp posts) before they are removed.

You also need to get a photo of the sign distance if possible --50m seems weird.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 00:28
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QUOTE (hjuk @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:35) *
Do I have any grounds for appeal?

Who knows?

Show us the PCN, the CEO's photos, any photos you've taken yourself, and a link to the location on google street view.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hjuk
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 13:03
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Thank you for the replies so far. Much appreciated. I'm attaching a map and some photos.



The map shows the seven suspension signs. The top of the map is north. The points on the north side of the road are 1 to 3, reading left to right. Those on the south side of the road are 4 to 7, again reading left to right. The parking suspension applied pretty much exactly between Points 1 ad 3 on the north side and points 4 and 7 on the south side.

Using the Google Maps 'Measure Distance' facility, the distance between signs 2 and 3 is 58m. I was parked pretty much exactly midway between suspension signs 2 and 3.

No notices were posted through residents doors.

My photos are added below. None are available from the parking enforcement action..


Photo 1: North side notices sample


Photo 2: South side notices sample


Photo 3: Sign 3


Photo 4: Towards Notice 3


Photo 5: Notice 3 concealed by vehicle


Photo 6: Notices 5 and 7 in distance

PCN:


The officer's photos are at https://ibb.co/album/gtOHka

This post has been edited by hjuk: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 21:14
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 16:23
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Your map hasn't uploaded, use an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com or make a folder on google driver or dropbox and stick everything in there. Also you need to show us the council's photos, which you'll find on the council website. Finally re-post the PCN with all the details visible except the number plate.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hjuk
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 16:48
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 16:23) *
Your map hasn't uploaded, use an external site like imgur.com or imgbb.com or make a folder on google driver or dropbox and stick everything in there. Also you need to show us the council's photos, which you'll find on the council website. Finally re-post the PCN with all the details visible except the number plate.


Thanks for your advice. Is that better?
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hjuk
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 16:59
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Link to officer's photos is https://ibb.co/album/gtOHka
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 18:02
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Can you add the location of your car to the map?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hjuk
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 22:42
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As I said above, it was almost exactly half-way between points 2 and 3 on the north side of the road - pretty much banh opposite point 6.

This post has been edited by hjuk: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 09:42
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hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 12:12
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The PCN states 'o/s no. 15'.

OP, IMO the issue is clear:

You parked in a suspended area;
The authority placed suspension signs on the only available posts spanning this area;
The signs are clear;
Could you convince an adj that you were unaware of the suspension because the location and number of signs was insufficient?
Should you risk the discount by even taking matters this far?

Having looked at GSV, my initial thoughts are that you would lose at adj - it's a foregone conclusion that the authority would reject your reps - because they placed signs on the only posts available.

Now, if you could establish that the signs only went up that day and that therefore despite no doubt walking and/or driving along this road regularly you were unaware of the forthcoming suspension, then you might have a remote possibility of success.

This is not a matter of law, this is simple and requires the suspension to be conveyed clearly and correctly: it is a matter of what an adj would find as facts and if it emerged that the signs were erected perhaps 7 days beforehand then IMO they would be bound to conclude that the suspension was conveyed as required and reject any appeal.
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hjuk
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 12:34
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Thank for your response.

I'm not rejecting this PCN because I'm difficult. I'm doing so because I do my best to park legally an dits infuriating when despite that I get fined.

I was away for three weeks prior to the suspension and got back the day before it came into force. I saw the signs on my side of the road, but those on the other side were not visible, both due to their distance from where I parked and the fact that they'd slid down the posts and were below vehicle level.

If that's no legal defence what about the failure of the authority to get the signs authorised by the DfT? http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/?search=haringey. Is that usable as a defence?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 16:41
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Forget not visible because of distance from the car. They were not visible because you did not get close enough. Probably because you didn't either look at all or closely enough.

They were placed on posts carrying traffic signs, this is perfectly acceptable.

What is not acceptable is if you did look towards one of the traffic signs and, knowing what was stated in the sign, your obligation was then to see whether there was a suspension sign (having been put on notice by what was on your side of the road). And not seeing a sign because it had fallen to ground level is a very strong defence.

Can you prove this in the face of the authority's evidence or would it just be your word against theirs?
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hjuk
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 20:45
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The authority's photo evidence (see link at bottom of original post) shows the sign fallen to the ground. I have photo evidence of this too. The signs on the north side of the road weren't visible because they'd fallen to the ground. Alightng on the offside they were not visible whether I looked or not.

This post has been edited by hjuk: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 12:06
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cp8759
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 21:28
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QUOTE (hjuk @ Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 12:34) *
If that's no legal defence what about the failure of the authority to get the signs authorised by the DfT? http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/?search=haringey. Is that usable as a defence?

No, see this http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-2964.pdf

Let's go back to basics:

QUOTE (hjuk @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:35) *
Last night as I was pulling up outside my house I noticed that parking was suspended for ten houses on my side starting this morning. So I moved to the other side and parked.

Did you then get out of the car and look for the sign regulating the bay you had parked in? Did you read that sign? Or did you simply assume that parking would be ok?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hjuk
post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 07:52
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Thanks re DfT signs.

Did I hunt for signs fallen to the ground? No. I guess I did what most people do when parking an an area where parking is known to be allowed. I looked up and down the road and nothing was visible. Is there a regulation that specifies how deeply we should search for signs?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 08:34
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You are required to park lawfully; they are required to place traffic signs which clearly convey lawful restrictions; there are recommended max distances between signs, formats for the layout of signs and a whole host of other details.

The action which a local person would be expected to take is different from that which a stranger would be expected to take. In any event, in this case the issue is whether the suspension was conveyed clearly enough. Even in their photos the rather striking yellow sign is visible. Rather similar to the ones which would have been present on your side of the road. So the starting point is that you knew what a suspension sign looked like and that there were active suspensions in the area. IMO, you would stand little chance of convincing an adj that you took every action required of you whereas the authority failed. Suspension signs are approx. 1.5 to 2 feet in length and placed beneath traffic signs. So would your view from however far away not scan the whole of the post from the ground upwards?

OP, only you know what you did. If you genuinely looked bu did not see, then you could eyeball the adj and say so...'I found *** to be a truthful and compelling appellant..'. I cannot advise on your ability to do this.

Anyway, you're not there yet. You have a couple of cracks at the authority first - only one if you are not the registered keeper - and you might yet convince them. You have until 26th to make a risk-free challenge i.e. discount would be re-offered even if unsuccessful.





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hjuk
post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 16:44
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Thanks for your reply.

There were cars parked by the signs. The signs had slid almost to the ground (You can see this in the officer photo) were thus below the level of cars parked beside them and so obscured by them unless you were on the pavement on that side of the road (you can see this in my photos 4 and 5). I alighted from the offside so the signs were completely obscured by the parked cars.
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cp8759
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 19:02
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QUOTE (hjuk @ Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 07:52) *
Thanks re DfT signs.

Did I hunt for signs fallen to the ground? No. I guess I did what most people do when parking an an area where parking is known to be allowed. I looked up and down the road and nothing was visible. Is there a regulation that specifies how deeply we should search for signs?

You cannot assume that because you parked there before, you could park there on this occasion. The permanent sign for that bay could have changed and you wouldn't have known. The expectation from the tribunal is that the notional diligent motorist, having parked in a bay, then looks for and goes and read the sign that regulates that bay. Of course, in the real world many people don't bother, but in so doing they incur the risk of a PCN, which is exactly what happened here.

To be honest, I'd pay the discount.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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