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PCN Issued in Post, PCN Issued in Post
ecnirp98
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 17:40
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Hi

I have received a PCN Notice in the post, which states the PCN was being prepared by a CEO but was not issued, when I logged on the website from Salford Council this is for:

48 - Stopped in a restricted area outside a school, a hospital or a fire, police or ambulance station when prohibited

The evidence photograph on the website PCN has a generic picture of a parking restrictions sign Mon-Fri 8am - 5pm, it is not a picture of the road the vehicle stopped on/containing the vehicle identity.

Myself and my wife both share the vehicle ( I am the licensed owner), so it could have been either of us driving the vehicle on the day, we never leave the vehicle when dropping off, just allow our child to leave the vehicle to walk into school.

The PCN says we can have a formal representation to appeal within 28 days, but we have 14 days to pay £35 fine, which then doubles to full £70 fine, if we appeal and lose, will we get another 14 days to pay the reduced fine (£35) or will we have to pay the full £70? as I am expecting any appeal will take more than 14 days.

Thanks for any advice.

This post has been edited by ecnirp98: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 17:47
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post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 17:40
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Incandescent
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 17:49
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First of all it doesn't matter who was driving, this is a decriminalised PCN and responsibility is with the owner as per the V5 to appeal or pay.

Please post the PCN and give us a GSV link to the location.
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ecnirp98
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 21:36
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Hi

Links to PCN Images




GSV:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.492853,-2.3...3312!8i6656


Thanks,
Paul.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 21:56
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The evidence photograph on the website PCN has a generic picture of a parking restrictions sign Mon-Fri 8am - 5pm, it is not a picture of the road the vehicle stopped on/containing the vehicle identity.

Myself and my wife both share the vehicle ( I am the licensed owner), so it could have been either of us driving the vehicle on the day, we never leave the vehicle when dropping off, just allow our child to leave the vehicle to walk into school.



So you acknowledge stopping and make it sound like a regular habit.

It is unlawful and you leave yourself liable in many adjudicators' eyes even when you stop on the side of the carriageway with the markings but not actually on the markings.

Letting off a passenger is not a defence.

With all the above in mind, what's your view now on whether you committed the contravention?

Now for procedure. For the PCN to be valid the CEO must have been in the vicinity and yet your account is silent on anything to do with the CEO. Perhaps you need to expand on the sequence of events.

From the authority's perspective, the PCN is grossly confusing and I think you could succeed at adjudication if they were stupid enough to let matters get that far.

The first sentence in your first post epitomises why we need docs and not OPs' opinions!

You posted:

I have received a PCN Notice in the post, which states the PCN was being prepared by a CEO but was not issued, ...

But this was their second attempt! The first statement in the PCN reads:

On *** a PCN was issued to vehicle *****.. by CEO ****.

So do tell me, which of their statements is true i.e. it was issued or it was being prepared but was not issued!

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ecnirp98
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 22:27
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Hi

Thanks for the reply.

The PCN was never issued to me on the day or stuck to my vehicle, I never spoke to the CEO and he never approached my vehicle while stopped, the PCN was received in the post about 3 days after the date listed on the letter, which was the first I knew of it.

I did see a CEO on the road as I approached the school, but the CEO was on the dog leg of the road on the other side of the school at a different gate about 50 75 metres before I stopped, I usually stop further down the road outside the houses where there are no road markings/restrictions, but this is a one way road, so on the day there were more cars keeping away from the no parking area/CEO, quite often cars double stop both sides of the road to drop off children, so it is impossible to drive past and you have to stop and wait.

I probably did commit the contravention on the day, I cannot hand on heart say I didn't, with the CEO in the area, lots of cars were double parked further down, so lots of vehicles were stopped in the road. I can say I never parked/left my vehicle, but I did stop drop my child off and wait to leave/pass other cars.

My initial question was more on the procedure of the 14 day cheaper fine, if I appeal, does that mean I lose the opportunity to pay the reduced fine (£35), or do I get 14 days from the appeal result, as I am inclined to pay at £35 as I cannot be sure if I committed the offence on the day or not. I have had a bus lane PCN's in the past, but they always send a photograph to prove you was in the bus lane, but this just had a generic sign, rather than evidence of my vehicle comitting the contravention.

Thanks.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 22:50
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You have no statutory right to the discount after the expiry of the discount period. However, a council may elect to re-offer either in all cases or 'generally' to use the opaque language in many PCNs. This is not stated in your PCN as far as I can see.



But IMO you have a statutory procedural defence - procedural impropriety - in that the PCN is not formulated in accordance with the mandatory requirements of the applicable regulations i.e. self-evidently it misleads the recipient as to the procedural basis for serving the PCN by post.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 22:53
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ecnirp98
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 23:13
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Thanks, I will put that in my appeal.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 07:33
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Post a draft here first.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 07:37
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The Council is playing fast and loose with the road markings ---they are too long.

Item 10 (Diagram 1027.1) here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made


The maximum length should be 43.56 m.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 08:12
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@MMV, and this one is ??? m in length?

And the OP was parked where relative to its excessive length?

And would an adj care a fig?

I think I know the answer to the last part!
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 20:53
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 08:12) *
@MMV, and this one is ??? m in length?

Around 78 metres at least, but it sounds like the OP has decided to fire off a challenge without waiting for us to give a view on his draft. This does not fill me with optimism.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 21:19
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 20:53) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 08:12) *
@MMV, and this one is ??? m in length?

Around 78 metres at least, but it sounds like the OP has decided to fire off a challenge without waiting for us to give a view on his draft. This does not fill me with optimism.


Its not one road marking Mick it is two side by side with a gap the regs allow this


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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