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Damaged restriction signs - PCN
michaelleachman
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 12:49
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Hi all,

I'm posting on behalf of my father in law. He recently parked down a road where the parking restriction signs had been spray painted black (Not the entry sign, the small signs on all the lamp posts).

He was issued a PCN about 10 days later for parking on the yellow line which he appealed on the grounds that the signs on the whole road weren’t clear due to them being spray painted (They have since replaced the damaged signs which have now again been sprayed black).

Do you think he should go to the adjudicators? Here is the letter rejecting his appeal and also pictures of the sprayed signs.

Annoyingly he didn't seek advice before putting in his appeal.

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post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 12:49
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 09:15
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The Council's response is daft --they indicate that signs are not necessary and yet they have replaced damaged ones.

18(1)(b) of this Act is relevant:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...ulation/18/made

If the times of the restrictions are different i.e the yellow line v the CPZ then a case can be made. However if they have the same times the discount should be considered.

Mick



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michaelleachman
post Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 23:19
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Thanks Mick

This is a tough one.

The havering website says.....

Hours of operation for the residents only bays are 8:30am to 6:30pm Monday to Friday inclusive (except Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Year's Day).
There are also some single yellow lines that operate 8am to 6:30pm Monday to Friday inclusive or 10:30am to 11:30am Monday to Friday inclusive.

The ones where he parked where 10:30-11:30am. I’m pretty sure none of them are 8am to 6:30pm on that road.

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 09:15) *
The Council's response is daft --they indicate that signs are not necessary and yet they have replaced damaged ones.

18(1)(b) of this Act is relevant:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...ulation/18/made

If the times of the restrictions are different i.e the yellow line v the CPZ then a case can be made. However if they have the same times the discount should be considered.

Mick

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hcandersen
post Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 23:37
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OP, where are the council's photos and where are the CPZ signs?

The position in law is simple:
The blacked out signs are not placed with any marking on the yellow line.
They do not therefore indicate a change in restriction but are repeater signs. If correct +1 to the council.

But why repeaters? Perhaps because this is a large CPZ?

No idea. We do not know where the CPZ signs are or what they state.

And as for: He was issued a PCN about 10 days later for parking on the yellow line!

PCNs can only be issued by hand, therefore he was parked for 10 days!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 - 23:50
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Incandescent
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 00:09
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Post the PCN please.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 09:41
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The zone entry signs are here on this direction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5872779,0.2...6384!8i8192

In the absence of other signs then this must apply and the council is right.

A you say some lines may be timeplated for different times to the CPZ but if they are balanked I can't see that you assume the CPZ doesn't apply.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 09:41
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michaelleachman
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 22:24
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I've been and checked today. The CPZ is 8:30 - 18:30 and all the yellows are 10:30-11:30.

Below is a link into the entrance of roads concerned.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5877472,0.2...6384!8i8192



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 09:41) *
The zone entry signs are here on this direction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5872779,0.2...6384!8i8192

In the absence of other signs then this must apply and the council is right.

A you say some lines may be timeplated for different times to the CPZ but if they are balanked I can't see that you assume the CPZ doesn't apply.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 23:02
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??

Your link takes us to the jn of Douglas and Squirrels. There are 10.30 traffic signs in Douglas.

If you trace the SYL out of Douglas and along Squirrels to no.33 you come to a CPZ sign which states..10.30!

I am at a loss to know what we're supposed to draw from this.

There's no 8.30 sign in sight.
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michaelleachman
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 07:57
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Sorry for the confusion.

Hamilton Road (where the offence took place) is at the end of Douglas road. New Link below

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5887351,0.2...6384!8i8192

The 08:30 signs are for parking bays only which require a resident permit. All the yellow lines are 10:30-11:30

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Feb 2020 - 23:02) *
??

Your link takes us to the jn of Douglas and Squirrels. There are 10.30 traffic signs in Douglas.

If you trace the SYL out of Douglas and along Squirrels to no.33 you come to a CPZ sign which states..10.30!

I am at a loss to know what we're supposed to draw from this.

There's no 8.30 sign in sight.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 08:40
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I can see the confusion in your mind - often the result of councils' (mis)use of language.

This is a 'controlled parking zone', usually shortened to CPZ:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/1/made


Is an area with uniform restrictions which apply to parking places a CPZ?

No. It is an area, or zone, with controls, it is not a CPZ.

Is there a CPZ in play here?

Yes. And it applies to waiting restrictions on SYL only and starts at 10.30.....

And the parking place restrictions?

Irrelevant for these purposes.

OP, so do we now simply have a CPZ in which your father parked during restricted hours?

As I posted previously, the stand-alone timeplates were a plus for the council who obviously considered them necessary for the purposes of reminding motorists within the CPZ of restricted hours. So, is this a tacit admission that without such signs motorists could get confused if they drove from SYL to DYL and then past parking places with different restrictions then back to DYL and then to SYL?

You could put this point and add that the benefit to motorists of these additional signs actually works against them when, as here, they're partially blanked-out. Yes, you can see the hours if you look closely. But what should you infer? These used to be the hours but no longer? But weren't these the hours on the CPZ signs? My brain hurts!

OP, IMO we need precision about where the car was relative to the CPZ signs passed and what other restrictions were encountered en route to where it parked if you are to have any form of argument against the PCN.
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 20:58
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michaelleachman let's go back to basics, please post up:

1) The PCN
2) All the CEO's photos (from the council website)
3) The representations you sent
4) The rest of the rejection letter

We cannot give you proper advice without all of this information. There won't be enough space on here so use an external site like imgur.com to host the images.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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