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Is my PCN's issued out of date
michaelleachman
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 16:58
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Hi All,

Today I received 3 PCN's from my local council for Contravention code 48. I let me kids out of the car on the yellow markings outside of their school. The picture doesn't show them getting out of the car and so far I haven't been able to watch the video as the website where I use the web-code inst working

I wanted to see if these have been issued too late. Date of contraventions are below

06/11/2019
19/11/2019
04/12/2019

The date on the notice is 10th Jan 2020, but it seems the letter arrived in my work post room on 24th Jan 2020. My car is a company car so they have sent the fine to my company on the 10th Jan asking for my details to transfer the liability.

On one of the occasions I was only in the yellow lines to let an oncoming car pass. The road is only narrow enough for one car to pass at a time.

This post has been edited by michaelleachman: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 10:48
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post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 16:58
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ostell
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:33
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You are in the private parking section of the forum. Ask the mods to move

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:34
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 08:04
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Once you get to the obvious COUNCIL tickets forum, have a read and see that you need to give actual documents, google street view etc. What youve posted above is unsufficient.
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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 11:01
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Thanks for flagging, this now now moved
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 11:21
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To keep this manageable use this thread for the first PCN then start a new thread for each of the other two.

For each post the PCN, redact only personal details we need all dates times and locations Also get and post the video we need to examine this


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hcandersen
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 11:22
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My car is a company car so they have sent the fine to my company on the 10th Jan asking for my details to transfer the liability.

???

Forget about the contraventions pl, let's get procedure out of the way.

Are these PCNs 'postal' i.e. were they served by post?
Do you have any PCNs in your name. If not, in whose name(s) are these PCNs?

Your car is leased by your employer or you?

The law is that:
Postal PCNs may be served on the basis of a camera recording when the contravention involves being on school entrance markings.


Which begs the question, if 'I let me kids out of the car on the yellow markings outside of their school' means you deliberately stopped on the yellow zig-zag markings when in effect, then please stop, you are not permitted. What you appear to be doing is what the restriction is specifically designed to stop.

Anyway, let's examine the details.
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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 12:30
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Yes all of the PCNs where served by post in the name of Hitachi Capital, they are the lease firm who my company leases the car from.

It was my wife who stopped to let them out, she is blind (not literally) and didn't see the CCTV car parked. I cannot view the video of the offence which is annoying
as the website doesn't work. Even if you are driving down that road, you have to pull in to let cars pass.

Website to view the offence - Visit My Website

PCN attached

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 11:22) *
My car is a company car so they have sent the fine to my company on the 10th Jan asking for my details to transfer the liability.

???

Forget about the contraventions pl, let's get procedure out of the way.

Are these PCNs 'postal' i.e. were they served by post?
Do you have any PCNs in your name. If not, in whose name(s) are these PCNs?

Your car is leased by your employer or you?

The law is that:
Postal PCNs may be served on the basis of a camera recording when the contravention involves being on school entrance markings.


Which begs the question, if 'I let me kids out of the car on the yellow markings outside of their school' means you deliberately stopped on the yellow zig-zag markings when in effect, then please stop, you are not permitted. What you appear to be doing is what the restriction is specifically designed to stop.

Anyway, let's examine the details.



Here is the PCN

This post has been edited by michaelleachman: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 12:30
Attached File(s)
Attached File  19th_Nov.pdf ( 243.17K ) Number of downloads: 46
 
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stamfordman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:07
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If the PCNs were originally served on Hitachi Capital, why is the one you have posted also in the name of Hitachi Capital?

If you PM me the PCN number I'll double check to see if video is available.
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Neil B
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:15
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:07) *
If the PCNs were originally served on Hitachi Capital, why is the one you have posted also in the name of Hitachi Capital?

Aha. That might explain something I noted last year with that lot.
I'll keep schtum until we get an answer.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:26
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Not another one!

Here is the PCN


No it's not. You cannot do anything with this because you are not Hitachi.

As I understand it, Hitachi lease vehicles; they have leased one to the company for which you work; they have allocated this to you.


But the PCN is addressed to Hitachi and dated 10 Jan. which is outside the permitted time which the authority have to serve the PCN:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/10/made

Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

But you cannot make reps on this basis because you are not the person on whom the PCN has been served.

Making reps is Hitachi's right and responsibility and as a lease company they should know this.

Now, where to go from here?

Your wife would appear to have no defence (I cannot count the number of times that I've read the 'I only pulled in to let cars pass and my child simply took advantage of this opportunity but I was always intending to stop at some other, legal but not defined, location' argument). I say this because there are 3 PCNs (we've seen only one!) each regarding the same contravention which clearly she feels happy to commit either out of ignorance or whatever - you expressed this as she simply doesn't read signs...or maybe she does but cannot be bothered to comply, after all this was not recorded by a permanent camera, only a mobile one.

As she has no defence, then why not just pay the discounts for all 3.

Alternatively, we can get into a complex process of you trying to convince your employer to get Hitachi to follow prescribed procedure.
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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 14:02
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Hitachi scanned a copy to me to and then asked for my details to forward it on to. Im yet to receive one in my name

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:07) *
If the PCNs were originally served on Hitachi Capital, why is the one you have posted also in the name of Hitachi Capital?

If you PM me the PCN number I'll double check to see if video is available.



Hitachi are going transfer the liability of the fine to me, they needed my details to send to Havering

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:26) *
Not another one!

Here is the PCN


No it's not. You cannot do anything with this because you are not Hitachi.

As I understand it, Hitachi lease vehicles; they have leased one to the company for which you work; they have allocated this to you.


But the PCN is addressed to Hitachi and dated 10 Jan. which is outside the permitted time which the authority have to serve the PCN:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/10/made

Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

But you cannot make reps on this basis because you are not the person on whom the PCN has been served.

Making reps is Hitachi's right and responsibility and as a lease company they should know this.

Now, where to go from here?

Your wife would appear to have no defence (I cannot count the number of times that I've read the 'I only pulled in to let cars pass and my child simply took advantage of this opportunity but I was always intending to stop at some other, legal but not defined, location' argument). I say this because there are 3 PCNs (we've seen only one!) each regarding the same contravention which clearly she feels happy to commit either out of ignorance or whatever - you expressed this as she simply doesn't read signs...or maybe she does but cannot be bothered to comply, after all this was not recorded by a permanent camera, only a mobile one.

As she has no defence, then why not just pay the discounts for all 3.

Alternatively, we can get into a complex process of you trying to convince your employer to get Hitachi to follow prescribed procedure.

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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 14:40
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Done

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 13:07) *
If the PCNs were originally served on Hitachi Capital, why is the one you have posted also in the name of Hitachi Capital?

If you PM me the PCN number I'll double check to see if video is available.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:12
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Prima facie, Hitachi's PCN has been served outside the time allowed i.e. contravention 19 Nov, PCN issued 20 Jan, a period of 63 days which is a tad more than 28,

As we've explained, Hitachi cannot transfer liability to you in law because you are not the hiree.

(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement; and
(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;


So, if there was a covering letter or associated correspondence which we've not seen which simply asks you to provide them with details, then do so.

But why did you first post:
Today I received 3 PCN's from my local council for Contravention code 48. I let me kids out of the car on the yellow markings outside of their school. The picture doesn't show them getting out of the car and so far I haven't been able to watch the video as the website where I use the web-code inst working

I wanted to see if these have been issued too late. Date of contraventions are below


Which shows:
1. It wasn't 'I' let, but my wife;
2. You do not have any PCNs and apparently you know this because you now say that you've been asked to provide your details to Hitachi.

It would be so much better to have a consistent strand of facts. What's the next matter to be changed I wonder.

Yes, I know it sounds hard, but while we can work wonders with the truth, it's shifting sands which make life difficult. And remember, we know we're giving advice about matters that have cost implications therefore we take this responsibility seriously.
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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:51
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Here is the email which came to me with scanned copies of the notice which I attached earlier

Hello,

We have received the attached PCN for your vehicle, please contact us within the next 5 working days to confirm the full name and home address of the driver at the time of the offence. This will enable us to request to transfer the liability of the fine into their name.

Once we have provided the drivers details to the issuing authority they should then re issue the fine out to the driver at their home address, allowing them to pay the fine at the discounted amount or appeal the fine if they wish.

If a final reminder is received by Hitachi at any point it is policy that this charge is paid and recharged to you.

Please respond to us within the next 5 working days, if we do not hear a response from you then we will pay this fine and recharge to avoid escalation. This will incur our admin fee of £25 + VAT.

We look forward to hearing from you.

Thank you



So in 2 of the pictures on the PCN it's my wife, the 3rd one we don't know if it was me or her because of the picture is dark

I only said I had the PCNs because I know they are going to be re-issued based on the email from Hitachi. I wanted to see if there was anything i could do ahead of them arriving. I would have normally paid them, however I noticed the dates on the scanned copies from Hitachi was a long while ago.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 16:12) *
Prima facie, Hitachi's PCN has been served outside the time allowed i.e. contravention 19 Nov, PCN issued 20 Jan, a period of 63 days which is a tad more than 28,

As we've explained, Hitachi cannot transfer liability to you in law because you are not the hiree.

(i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement; and
(ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement;


So, if there was a covering letter or associated correspondence which we've not seen which simply asks you to provide them with details, then do so.

But why did you first post:
Today I received 3 PCN's from my local council for Contravention code 48. I let me kids out of the car on the yellow markings outside of their school. The picture doesn't show them getting out of the car and so far I haven't been able to watch the video as the website where I use the web-code inst working

I wanted to see if these have been issued too late. Date of contraventions are below


Which shows:
1. It wasn't 'I' let, but my wife;
2. You do not have any PCNs and apparently you know this because you now say that you've been asked to provide your details to Hitachi.

It would be so much better to have a consistent strand of facts. What's the next matter to be changed I wonder.

Yes, I know it sounds hard, but while we can work wonders with the truth, it's shifting sands which make life difficult. And remember, we know we're giving advice about matters that have cost implications therefore we take this responsibility seriously.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 17:13
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Who was driving is irrelevant for these purposes: you are mistaking speeding offences and parking.

And as for 'we don't know if it was me or her because of the picture is dark'

'We' do, as in you and your wife. The pictures might not show, but you know who was driving at the specified time at the specified location, don't you! Anyway, it's irrelevant, so we don't have to Box and Cox with this, thank goodness.


The 'owner' is liable.
The owner is the person by whom the vehicle is kept and presumed to be the registered keeper.
This is Hitachi but they may through a prescribed process make reps to transfer liability to the person who signed the hiring agreement.
They cannot do this just by giving a name and address: they are ignorant as regards this procedure, but they shouldn't be.

Schedule 2 applies if I remember correctly:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/made
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michaelleachman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 17:39
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Honestly, we don't know which one of us was driving. This is our only car which we share. We leave the house together each morning and whichever one of us finds our keys first is usually the driver.

When we have had parking fines in the past, I get that same email from Hitachi which is usually within a week or 2 of the offence and then a week later I get the fine from Havering in my name and I pay it. When the new fine arrives I will look at the date and follow schedule 2

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 17:13) *
Who was driving is irrelevant for these purposes: you are mistaking speeding offences and parking.

And as for 'we don't know if it was me or her because of the picture is dark'

'We' do, as in you and your wife. The pictures might not show, but you know who was driving at the specified time at the specified location, don't you! Anyway, it's irrelevant, so we don't have to Box and Cox with this, thank goodness.


The 'owner' is liable.
The owner is the person by whom the vehicle is kept and presumed to be the registered keeper.
This is Hitachi but they may through a prescribed process make reps to transfer liability to the person who signed the hiring agreement.
They cannot do this just by giving a name and address: they are ignorant as regards this procedure, but they shouldn't be.

Schedule 2 applies if I remember correctly:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/made

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stamfordman
post Fri, 31 Jan 2020 - 18:19
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No videos but I can see from one pic that there looks to be a male driver. That's irrelevant as HCA says but may give you a clue as to who should be paying attention.

Two of the pics put you right by a police sign warning you of endangering children so you can forget appealing the contraventions I think.

That's if there was a stop to alight a child and this was not part of a driving manoeuvre as you say it's a narrow road and was the case in one PCN - in the pic for one the car does to be clear of the the zig zags but only just.

As HCA also says these PCNs seem to be out of time as served on the keeper - I thought the one you posted had been re-served.

As he also says they can only ask council to re-serve on the hirer not the driver. This will probably be your company not you.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:25
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if liability is not correctly transferred then nothing else matters, surely? It's for the council to prove liability was correctly transferred, it's not for the recipient to show that it wasn't.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 18:45
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What should happen is that Hitachi transfers liability to the hirer, which is the OP's company unless there is a personal lease arrangement.

Then only the company can make reps but aided by the OP, and they can say with certainty that some or all of the PCNs were served out of time as they have copies of them.
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 11:33
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I think what we really need is a clear timeline of what's what, from the thread I cannot tell at a glance what's outstanding, what's not and so on. michaelleachman if you PM me your email address I can sort out a little table that outlines all the facts and we can take it from there.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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