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Statutory declarations (PE2 & PE3) rejected by TEC, PCN not received as I moved home
Schumacher2020
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 16:36
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Hello,

I need your help with the following situation:
A few months ago I was on a bus lane without realizing it (it was an area with time restriction access) and one week later I moved home. I notified DVLA about the change of address (both driving licence and V5C) in the first week after moving into the new flat, but I haven't set up a mail redirection with Royal Mail because I had no idea of this service and wasn't expecting any mail anyway, as I didn't know about the contravention until the bailiffs came to my door. Reading Borough Council has sent the PCN and all the other notices / letters to my old address, as supplied by the DVLA at the time of contravention. After 5 months the bailiffs turned up to my door (new address) saying that I had to pay the amount of £408 for an unpaid PCN, otherwise he would clamp my car. I explained to the agent that I didn't know about it and had not received any communications, but he said I had to sort this out with the council afterwards. Having no other option, I ended up paying the money to the agent although I haven't seen any notices or warrant and after that I went to the council in order to explain the situations. Unfortunately, I was told there is no one I could talk to and the lady in reception advised me to write a letter to the council, which I did in a couple of days time but never received a reply. In the meantime I found out about the statutory declaration out of time (PE2 form) from the Citizens Advice and sent it to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. They have also asked me to fill in the PE3 form, which I did. I have explained the whole situation and enclosed evidence for my statement (tenancy agreement for my new address, end of tenancy document from the previous property, email confirmation for the online change of address on my driving licence, copy of V5C). I have to mention that the DVLA has processed my request within 2 or 3 weeks from receiving it, but this is not important as the Council has used the postal address provided at the day of contravention.
Reading Borough Council admitted they sent all the letters to my old address but they still requested the TEC to reject my Statutory Declaration as "all the correct legal procedures were followed" and "the payment was made in full to the enforcement agents".
In the meantime I have received the warrant of control from the bailiffs, as I have requested it by email, and it is obvious that they also had my old address into their records. It is really strange how the enforcement agent found my new home address when he came to collect the money...
Now, I have just received the Court's order rejecting my application without giving any reason at all (please see attached).
Could you please advise me if there is a chance to recover the money from the bailiffs and does it worth it to do further actions or just resign with the decision although it was not my fault for not paying the fine?

Many thanks
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post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 16:36
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 17:08
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Bailiffs will find you - that's their job, so not strange.

With the move and contravention date so close this out of time should have succeeded - that's what it's for.

With this sum at stake it will probably be worth paying for a judge's review - others will advise.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:34
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We need to see what you put on your OOT, because TEC should not really have rejected it if you were as diligent as you say in updating your V5. Far too many TEC officials take the easy way out if a council objects. They could quite easily accept your OOT on the basis that your address was in process of updating at DVLA.

However, until we see what you told TEC its difficult to advise. A County Court judge review of the decision costs £100, and you are unlikely to get this back from TfL as they haven't done anything wrong.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:35
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Neil B
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 23:04
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:34) *
costs £100, and you are unlikely to get this back from TfL as they haven't done anything wrong.

I know you meant Reading but they have done something wrong imho. Objecting to such circumstances is absurd.

But, as you say, we do need to see what they've objected to exactly.

I also have an issue with enforcement at an address not on the warrant.

Schumacher.
Phone TEC tomorrow and ask if the address on the warrant was ever changed.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 10:42
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The warrant is key IMO.

Forget parking legislation, it has nothing to do with matters: as I understand it, if a warrant is not made out correctly as regards mandatory elements and the enforcement agent knows the correct address for service then it may not be enforced at the wrong property, irrespective of the nature of the underlying debt. Yes, if it's parking related and the same car is parked on the highway this may be clamped

This is a matter for the council's s151 officer. IMO, they have broken the law and coerced you into paying what they were not lawfully empowered to demand.

1. Warrant without correct address;
2. Similarly, according to the OP none of the regulatory notices was served ( https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-f...rge-notice-pcn)

So OP:
You say you have a warrant, pl post it - if it's got your old address then you can leave this is in.
Pl confirm that you did not receive either of the obligatory bailiff enforcement notices, see link above)

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:02
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Incandescent
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 16:25
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:34) *
costs £100, and you are unlikely to get this back from TfL as they haven't done anything wrong.

I know you meant Reading but they have done something wrong imho. Objecting to such circumstances is absurd.

But, as you say, we do need to see what they've objected to exactly.

I also have an issue with enforcement at an address not on the warrant.

Schumacher.
Phone TEC tomorrow and ask if the address on the warrant was ever changed.

Oh dear, I've slagged off TfL by mistake ! Apologies to them. I suppose it is Reading who should be haning their heads is shame, but as we all know, shame in public bodies has been abolished.
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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 16:48
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Hello.
I have attached the Statutory declaration and the Warrant of control, which has my old address on it. I have never received anything to my new address, not even the Notice of Enforcement. They have sent them all to the previous property. I have also obtained a statement of accounts from the bailiffs still with the old address but I couldn't uploaded...
Regards

This post has been edited by Schumacher2020: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:15
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hcandersen
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:10
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Warrant link doesn't work I'm afraid.
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:15
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Do you have a copy of Reading's objection, as mentioned in the TEC letter?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:16
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I have reattached it. Thanks
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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:30
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I do have the statement from the council but I am not allowed to upload it. They admit they have sent all the notices to my old address and asks the Court to reject my statutory declaration, nothing else.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:15) *
Do you have a copy of Reading's objection, as mentioned in the TEC letter?


I do have the statement from the council but I am not allowed to upload it. They admit they have sent all the notices to my old address and asks the Court to reject my statutory declaration, nothing else.

This post has been edited by Schumacher2020: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:32
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:33
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QUOTE (Schumacher2020 @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:28) *
I do have the statement from the council but I am not allowed to uploaded. They admit they have sent all the notices to my old address and asks the Court to reject my statutory declaration, nothing else.

You need to host images externally, e.g. ibb, Flickr, Imgur and paste the BB codes into a reply here.

The objection will give us the dates we don't so far have and, if you want to fight, it's a crucial document
as it's what you are fighting!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:39
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 10:42) *
The warrant is key IMO.

Forget parking legislation, it has nothing to do with matters: as I understand it, if a warrant is not made out correctly as regards mandatory elements and the enforcement agent knows the correct address for service then it may not be enforced at the wrong property, irrespective of the nature of the underlying debt. Yes, if it's parking related and the same car is parked on the highway this may be clamped

This is a matter for the council's s151 officer. IMO, they have broken the law and coerced you into paying what they were not lawfully empowered to demand.

1. Warrant without correct address;
2. Similarly, according to the OP none of the regulatory notices was served ( https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-f...rge-notice-pcn)

So OP:
You say you have a warrant, pl post it - if it's got your old address then you can leave this is in.
Pl confirm that you did not receive either of the obligatory bailiff enforcement notices, see link above)


I confirm that I have not received the enforcement notice, absolutely nothing. The warrant was issued with my old address, the agent went to that address on that day (it is mentioned on the statement of accounts I got from the bailiffs) but somehow he found out my new address (I suspect the previous letting agency as they were the only ones who had my forwarding address) and came to my door 2 hours later.
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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 19:19
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:33) *
QUOTE (Schumacher2020 @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:28) *
I do have the statement from the council but I am not allowed to uploaded. They admit they have sent all the notices to my old address and asks the Court to reject my statutory declaration, nothing else.

You need to host images externally, e.g. ibb, Flickr, Imgur and paste the BB codes into a reply here.

The objection will give us the dates we don't so far have and, if you want to fight, it's a crucial document
as it's what you are fighting!


Many thanks. I posted here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186733134@N06/
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 19:31
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IMG_20200130_172200 by SCHUMY M, on Flickr


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 19:41
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 17:08) *
With the move and contravention date so close this out of time should have succeeded - that's what it's for.

Yep.
The objection is pathetic. Nothing wrong with your PE2. Crystal clear your V5 was with or on its way to DVLA at the time
Reading applied for your details.

Court officer refusing needs a slap too.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 19:57
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Did you phone TEC as I suggested in post #4 ?

----
I suspect Reading have objected because you've paid and they don't want the hassle of recovering
money from the bailiff, which, if an N244 is successful, will be their job not yours btw.

----
One member here believes N244 fees are recoverable via the review but I think that would need the
hearing to be 'on notice', meaning a personal appearance and a fee of £255.

Personally I'd go the £100 route and, once successful, look to recover that by complaint to Reading about
their absurd objection, escalated to Local Authority Ombudsman if necessary.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 20:41
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:34) *
costs £100, and you are unlikely to get this back from TfL as they haven't done anything wrong.

I know you meant Reading but they have done something wrong imho. Objecting to such circumstances is absurd.

But, as you say, we do need to see what they've objected to exactly.

I also have an issue with enforcement at an address not on the warrant.

Schumacher.
Phone TEC tomorrow and ask if the address on the warrant was ever changed.


The address on the warrant was never changed. The bailiffs confirmed they had my old address into their records, and the same it is shown on the warrant of control and on the statement of accounts they provided on my request. It is written that on the same day the agent went to the old property twice, before coming to my new address in order to collect the money. First time (09:19) he didn't find anyone at home / or no one answered the door and left a letter and second time (09:34) he spoke to "Defaulter" (new tenant I assume). He arrived to my new home around 11 am. I suspect he found out the name of the letting agency and pay them a visit. That's how he got my new address which only appears on the receipt he gave me for the money I paid by card.
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Neil B
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 20:45
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Where was the car exactly?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Schumacher2020
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 21:18
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 20:45) *
Where was the car exactly?


The car was in the private parking (off road) at the new address, when the enforcement agent arrived.
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