PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Bus lane pcn Sheffield middlewood road, Received a bus lane pcn. Advice requested.
Discombobulated
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 15:37
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



Hi, I received a bus lane pcn from Sheffield council. Just to state that I have successfully appealed a parking ticket from parkingeye and so have a little bit of an idea how the process of appealing is supposed to work but would appreciate your advice.

I was unfamiliar with the city as I'm not from Sheffield. But the town I'm from, we have bus gates and I know what they look like so I would never knowingly go through one. Checking Google Street view it seems that there are some signs but they are high up and the escape roads are not very well signposted. Is there a standard design that bus gates/bus lanes should adhere to? It just seems that the current setup is designed to catch out motorists who are not familiar with the area.

On what grounds should I appeal? I have searched the forum and found details of appeals made for this location but they were a few years ago and I wanted to make sure those points are still relevant now.

I will post link to images of the pcn and some screenshots of Google Street view.

Pcn letter

https://imageshack.com/a/affn7/1

Approach to bus gate/ bus lane showing signs and escape roads (there small signs pointing right and saying "other traffic")

https://imageshack.com/a/qffn7/1

Pictures of the bus gates in my hometown to show what I thought bus gates ought to look like

https://imageshack.com/a/Hffn7/1


This post has been edited by Discombobulated: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 16:14
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 15:37
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 18:00
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,204
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Private parking PCNs are very different from council ones.

Post all of the PCN and the video if you can.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

Put videos on Youtube, Vimeo or such like.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 18:00
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 21:42
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,071
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



We've seen this set-up before, but not sure how that OP got on, somebody here may know. The problem with all cases outside London is that the Traffic Penalty Tribunal don't operate a searchable, on-line appeals register, so you can't look to find similar cases like you can with the London Tribunals register. This means unless an OP wins and posts up his decision with the adjudicator's rationale for it, we are in the dark. Not very good, is it, but TPT are under no legal obligation to provide such a facility. A big black mark to them, IMHO

As to the situation on Middlewood Rd, there is loads of signage, I'm afraid, albeit not ideally placed, but I think you'd find it very difficult to appeal on, because you should recognise as a motorist the signs they are using. Were you following satnav instructions ? In outlining what signs are present, using GSV, so everybody here can go in and look, I have assumed you came from the north as you approached Sheffield, What I'd like to know is why you carried on down Middlewood Road here, rather than took the road to the left as the sign encourages you to do.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4122002,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
When the tram route first opened in 1994, it very soon became clear the narrowness of the street at Hillsborough could not take all the traffic plus the trams, so at an early stage it was made restricted at peak hours and remains so today decades later. HOwever there are no legal signs for a "Tramgate", so they used bus ones instead, as there are also bus services along the tram route.

Here's the first advance sign on Middlewood Road: -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4039254,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

and the sign for the "other traffic" just after it. Where on earth you go when you turn right, heaven only knows !
However you do get a second go at turning off, as here, but again, down a minor side street.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4031386,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
and the second sign for turning
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4031558,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
Then the bus gate sign. However, it is a time-dependent sign and only appears at the restricted times
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4028557,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
When traffic is allowed, this sign appears, which is what you have captured in your photo. This Janus-like sign can therefore display two things depending on the time of day, because the sign is placed on moveable, vertical slats. You can see them in the picture.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4028365,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

It is very doubtful a satnav would know the closed times, so would likely direct you forward past the bus gate.

Of course the key question is - was the sign showing the bus gate sign, or just the HGV weight limit, which it does outside peak hours ?

As it is, unless you can prove the sign was defective, I think you are bang-to-rights and would probably be better paying the discount. HOwever, others may see a plausible appeal argument, but like most of these, it eventually involves going to the adjudicators. At the adjudicators, the discount is lost, so it is a double-or-quits gamble, and here I don't think the odds are good.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 23:08
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



We need the video, I very much doubt that it will show the status of the signs and it needs to


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 00:05
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,071
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



One has to ask why the white-on-blue bus gate sign is not permanent with the times displayed like bus lane signs; why bother with the expense of a sign that only appears when it applies ?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 13:04
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 21:42) *
We've seen this set-up before, but not sure how that OP got on, somebody here may know. The problem with all cases outside London is that the Traffic Penalty Tribunal don't operate a searchable, on-line appeals register, so you can't look to find similar cases like you can with the London Tribunals register. This means unless an OP wins and posts up his decision with the adjudicator's rationale for it, we are in the dark. Not very good, is it, but TPT are under no legal obligation to provide such a facility. A big black mark to them, IMHO

As to the situation on Middlewood Rd, there is loads of signage, I'm afraid, albeit not ideally placed, but I think you'd find it very difficult to appeal on, because you should recognise as a motorist the signs they are using. Were you following satnav instructions ? In outlining what signs are present, using GSV, so everybody here can go in and look, I have assumed you came from the north as you approached Sheffield, What I'd like to know is why you carried on down Middlewood Road here, rather than took the road to the left as the sign encourages you to do.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4122002,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
When the tram route first opened in 1994, it very soon became clear the narrowness of the street at Hillsborough could not take all the traffic plus the trams, so at an early stage it was made restricted at peak hours and remains so today decades later. HOwever there are no legal signs for a "Tramgate", so they used bus ones instead, as there are also bus services along the tram route.

Here's the first advance sign on Middlewood Road: -

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4039254,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

and the sign for the "other traffic" just after it. Where on earth you go when you turn right, heaven only knows !
However you do get a second go at turning off, as here, but again, down a minor side street.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4031386,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
and the second sign for turning
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4031558,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
Then the bus gate sign. However, it is a time-dependent sign and only appears at the restricted times
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4028557,-...33;8i6656?hl=en
When traffic is allowed, this sign appears, which is what you have captured in your photo. This Janus-like sign can therefore display two things depending on the time of day, because the sign is placed on moveable, vertical slats. You can see them in the picture.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4028365,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

It is very doubtful a satnav would know the closed times, so would likely direct you forward past the bus gate.

Of course the key question is - was the sign showing the bus gate sign, or just the HGV weight limit, which it does outside peak hours ?

As it is, unless you can prove the sign was defective, I think you are bang-to-rights and would probably be better paying the discount. HOwever, others may see a plausible appeal argument, but like most of these, it eventually involves going to the adjudicators. At the adjudicators, the discount is lost, so it is a double-or-quits gamble, and here I don't think the odds are good.


Thank you for taking the time to reply it is much appreciated.

I cannot yet access the video as the sheffield parking website is down for maintenance until tomorrow afternoon angry.gif

to address the questions posed:

Yes I was following satnav instructions, so I was following the route it led me on, I remember the visibility was difficult as the sun was shining right in my face at this point and I was focused on making sure the road was clear ahead. I did not see the signs you showed in the links to gsv.

would it be worth pointing this out in my appeal? I would include the info from https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/sheffield

Attached Image


shows that the sun would have been at 5 degrees altitude in the SE at the time of the contravention. the section of middlewood road in question also goes in a south easterly direction. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4030694,-1.5033393,18z


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 18:51
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,071
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



You can claim signs difficult to see with low sun, but the problem is they have "heard it all before", and are unlikely to give way. Do try it though, you may get lucky. I can't see any other compelling argument, although the signs are mounted very high. The biggest problem with out-of-London cases like this is there is no access to the results of previous cases on the TPT register. I suppose we're very fortunate that London Tribunals does so.

We also see a lot of threads where people are using a satnav. There seems to be rather too much reliance on these. I would call them a PCN generator, especially in London where moving traffic offences are ruthlessly enforced. MIddlewood Road is a real trap if you follow the satnav, as at the point where the signs direct you to the left down Catch Bar Lane street for City Centre, Barnsley, and Rotherham, it directs you down a street labelled "Middlewood Shops Only".

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4127284,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

and here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4122553,-...33;8i6656?hl=en

I can't see an adjudicator having much sympathy with you, and any way, you'd have to risk the full PCN penalty to find out.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 19:00
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Jan 2020 - 20:38
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



As soon as you mention sat nav you have lost, don't We need to see the video before a defence can be formulated


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 11:32
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,705
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 23:08) *
We need the video, I very much doubt that it will show the status of the signs and it needs to

It also needs to comply with the requirements of The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 and from the image on the PCN, this seems unlikely.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 15:04
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 11:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 23:08) *
We need the video, I very much doubt that it will show the status of the signs and it needs to

It also needs to comply with the requirements of The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 and from the image on the PCN, this seems unlikely.


my point exactly and with a variable message sign critical that it does


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 19:25
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



Attached Image
I have been able to log on to the website. There is no video available, there is only one additional image which I have posted

It kind of illustrates what I was saying before. The low sun and pedestrians in the road made it nigh on impossible to notice the signs that were very high up on the approach to the bus gate as I had my sun visor down. You can kind of see how bright the sun was by the reflection in the shop signs in the top left corner of the picture.

I'm going to draft out an appeal and post it here before submitting. Can't lose anything by appealing the first time and who knows there's a slight chance they might accept it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 19:37
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Go back onto the sight and get a screenshot of the fact that you cannot view the video. but the camera cannot comply with the requirements of the approval regs so post your draft and one of us will add that bit


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:02
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 19:37) *
Go back onto the sight and get a screenshot of the fact that you cannot view the video. but the camera cannot comply with the requirements of the approval regs so post your draft and one of us will add that bit



Attached Image

Attached Image


Draft of appeal

I am appealing because on the date and time of the contravention the signs warning of an impending bus gate were impossible to see.

This was because the sun at that time of day was shining directly into the front of the car, thereby obliging the driver to keep the sun visor flipped down hence reducing the upwards field of vision. Also the sun glare meant that the overall visibility was reduced.

To emphasise how bright the sun was I would like to point out that in the images you yourself have captured, all 3 have a blown out sun reflection in the shop signs in the top left corner. Under normal conditions this would not happen as non polished surfaces are not particularly reflective.

I have also included the sun position at the specific date and time of the contravention as recorded on the website; https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/sheffiel...1&year=2020

On the 7th of January, at 9.14am the sun was at a position of 5° above the horizon at a heading of 140°SE which would put the sun directly in front of any drivers approaching the bus lane on middlewood road at that time.

Also in the picture you can observe a pedestrian in the road. This particular section of middlewood road was quite built up and narrow and thus pedestrians were crossing at various points which meant that the driver had to slow down and focus heavily on spotting any pedestrians potentially crossing the road.

This was my first time in Sheffield as I have recently started a new job. I was not aware of there even being a bus lane to watch out for here as no doubt that the local people are. Due to the sun glare the visibility was temporarily reduced which made it impossible to observe the signs warning of a bus lane ahead. It was a genuine mistake that will not be repeated as I have now been made aware of the existence of this particular bus lane. You will note that since recieving this ticket I have not been down this route since.

I would appreciate it if the charge could be cancelled as the objective of keeping the bus lane clear of unauthorised vehicles has been achieved. I am sure that this is also your objective as well and that Sheffield council are not like other reprehensible councils in simply using PCNs as money-making scheme rather than a tool for managing traffic.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:08
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,705
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You're obviously trying to view the video on a mobile, which might be an issue. PM me the PCN details and I'll have a look.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:22
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:08) *
You're obviously trying to view the video on a mobile, which might be an issue. PM me the PCN details and I'll have a look.


I have PM's you the details. Thanks for checking
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:31
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 19,705
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



There is definitely no video on the council site.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:24
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:31) *
There is definitely no video on the council site.


Thanks for checking for me

So should I mention that in my appeal too? Would it be another stock to beat them with?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:32
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Discombobulated @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:24) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:31) *
There is definitely no video on the council site.


Thanks for checking for me

So should I mention that in my appeal too? Would it be another stock to beat them with?


No the PCN tells you that you can ask for a viewing, that is what is required by law

Hold fire on your reps for a day or so, you have the points in but it sound to much like mitigating circumstances, we should word it in a way that claims unambiguously that the signs are not adequate, I will run through it tomorrow


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Discombobulated
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:45
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 25 Jan 2020
Member No.: 107,576



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (Discombobulated @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:24) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 21:31) *
There is definitely no video on the council site.


Thanks for checking for me

So should I mention that in my appeal too? Would it be another stock to beat them with?


No the PCN tells you that you can ask for a viewing, that is what is required by law

Hold fire on your reps for a day or so, you have the points in but it sound to much like mitigating circumstances, we should word it in a way that claims unambiguously that the signs are not adequate, I will run through it tomorrow


Thank you for that. Will I still be in time for appealing before the half price deadline?

The PCN says I have 14 days from the date the PCN was served to pay the reduced charge. A pcn is served two working days after the date it was posted which the on the PCN was on the 18th January, so by my reckoning it was served on the 20th January and the 14 days expires tomorrow. But checking the website it's showing as the charge to be paid is £60 i.e - the full amount.

Can somebody confirm I've got my math right? As I'm sure I'm still within my 14 days.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 22:57
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,715
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



You need another screenshot of that page the 14 days at best can be tomorrow but there is a very strong argument that it would be Tuesday because the 18th was a Saturday so it could not have been posted then But regardless if the want the full £60 now you have won all bar the singing or an adjudicator having a massive brain fart



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Wednesday, 23rd September 2020 - 23:07
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.